• luckepene luckepene
    January 28, 2010
    My mother has dementia with psychotic episodes.How do I get POA?
    luckepene luckepene
    January 28, 2010

    My mother has late stage dementia with psychotic episodes.  I have been told I need to get POA.  I don't know where to begin.  She has signed and given me the right to sign her checks and beneficiary of her bank account. That will able me pay her bills so as she lives alone in her home and has heating and electrical bills and other small bills.

    I do know where to begin.  Can anyone tell me where I need to start?

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FROM OUR EXPERTS

  • Christine Kennard
    Health Pro
    January 31, 2010
    Christine Kennard
    Health Pro
    January 28, 2010

    Hi luckepene

     

    I wrote this sharepost last week about some of the legal issues and terms you will hear when you go for POA. I think it will help you when you meet with lawyers. It also gives some links at the end of the blog about the legal forms as well as advice from lawyers dealing with this subject.

     

    Hope they help you. Good luck

     

    Christine

    • luckepene
      January 31, 2010
      luckepene
      January 31, 2010

      I thank you immensily for the information, it has helped considerably.  It gives me a better prospective of what I need to help my husband understand more about what he has ahead of him, ( I should say both of us as we are in this together). 

      I am so grateful for all the knowledge you have shared with me.  I am sincerely hoping that the coming week will not be as difficult as the previous, whatever I will deal with what comes one day at a time. The information that has been shered from this web site had allowed me to be educated more that I could ever expect from anywhere.

      Thank you so much.

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  • Carol Bradley Bursack
    Health Guide
    September 06, 2011
    Carol Bradley Bursack
    Health Guide
    January 28, 2010

    I would think that would depend in whose name the car is in. If one spouse has a name on the title, and the other spouse wants to sell the car, a Power Of Attorney may be needed. If the spouse whose name is on the car is unable to sign, you may want to check with an attorney.

    Good luck,

    Carol


FROM OUR COMMUNITY

  • Louise February 14, 2010
    Louise
    January 28, 2010

    I am really sorry for everyone dealing with dementia, including myself. I am looking after my mother and she lives in her own home. On the weekend she turned on the kitchen taps with the plug in and then went and fell asleep in the loungeroom for two hours. The damage bill will be around $5000 by the look of things. She's so upset and so am I. Mostly she manages all right but now and then these things happen. I am avoiding putting her in a nursing home for as long as possible. I have Enduring Power of Attorney and Guardianship. Poor Mum, since that kitchen accident she's been saying there's something wrong with her brain and she can't live alone any more. It's heartbreaking.

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    • luckepene
      February 16, 2010
      luckepene
      February 16, 2010

      Hello,

       

      I really ache for your situation.  Sometimes it seems so unfair the situations that life has to offer to us.  I hope that your mother is ok after the fire.  I am sure it is a difficult situation to be in. My mil cannot give POA as she is basically incompetant.  Therefore my husband must go through the court and a attorney to gain guardianship.  It is difficult for him since he the only sibling and being the only son of his mother.

      I just can't understand why he can't see that she lies about so much as he has caught her in quite a few lies.  I have backed off and let him handle the situation in hope that he will see how bad the situation really is and how much she is needs constant care.  She is getting continually worse as she refuses to take her blood pressure med and the aricept (for her memory), she claims the meds are making her sick.  She will not eat and her wright loss has gotten really bad. Last month a gentleman from a local assisted living home visited her about moving there.  He stated that she invited him in and gave him a tour of her entire home ( she has never seen the man before) including her priceless antiques in her home. This man was a complete stranger to her.  It is frightening that she allows strangers into her home.

       

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  • NC
    NC
    January 28, 2010
    NC
    NC
    January 28, 2010

    Get some legal advice. DO you know any lawyer or legal service? Ask the social worker or senior center. Find the lawyer or legal service and go from there. Usually the doctor also has to write a letter saying she is incompetent and then the legal service can help you to do all the work that is necessary. My FIL signed POA to my husband long before he got very sick with Alzheimer's, so I am not sure how it really works if your Mom never signed any POA. I am sure there is a way out, the lawyer/attorney can help you to do that with legal documents.

     

    The other possibility is ask the attorney to apply for guardianship for you to help your Mom. You would need to go to court and the judge will decide if it is ok to grant you this guardianship and then the judge will just ask you to report to him/her at times about her situation.

     

    However, we had to pay fees to the lawyers. Try to find some free legal service. Ask Alzheimer's Assoication, the local chapter can tell you more info.

     

    Also, I believe this POA is health proxy or health directive and DNR kind of stuff regarding her health. Financial POA is another thing. There are 2 kinds of POA.
    In my experience, each financial co. needs its own POA document, so it was a lot of trouble for us, now we only got one or two financial co. to deal with.

     

     

    Hope this helps,

    Nina

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    • luckepene
      January 28, 2010
      luckepene
      January 28, 2010

      Dear Nina,

       

      Thank you for the information.  I found it very informative.  I will go from there.  I sincerely appreciate the information.  I am having a difficult time with her.  She also has been to her neighbors mail box and got their mail and they reported it to the police after she brought it to their home and walked it without ringing the door bell.  My mother is a hostile person and she attacks family mambers with much verbal abuse.  Our two daughters want nothing to do with her since she found out one of them was trying to get her to a assisted living home.  The man from the assisted living center came to her door, she did not know him, yet she gave him a tour of her home and her precoius antiques. This could have been a dangerous person and she let a stranger into her home.  Its is very difficult.  I guess you know. Thanks again.

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    • pansies
      January 29, 2010
      pansies
      January 29, 2010

      Bless your heart.  I know what you are going through. I took care of my Mama(only me) for several years before she had to go to nursing home.  My Mama took 5mg aricept and low dose of zoloft for depression and it did help believe it or not.  Some of your Mama's behaviour could be lessened with medication.  You have to think of her safety and YOUR SAFETY as well. No one wants to put their loved one in assisted living or a nursing home BUT sometimes that is the ONLY ANSWER.  My mama is actually flourishing PHYSICALLY since she went into the nursing home.  She is eating better, gained some weight, walks the halls and does morning exercise.  Her mind is getting worse but I truly believe her life will be prolonged by going to the n.h. versus what she was eating in her home.  I did all I could do but when they will not eat and become aggressive you have to rethink things.  My mama would answer the door to anybody as well (very dangerous). I truly feel for you BUT if you make the decision to put her in assisted living or a nursing home you will know SHE IS SAFE and you will be able to get a good night's rest.  IT WILL NOT BE EASY ON YOU IN THE BEGINNING BUT IT DOES GET EASIER AND JUST STAY ON TOP OF THE SITUATION AND STAFF IF YOU PLACE HER SOMEWHERE.  I pray the best for you and your mama..  GOD BLESS YOU BOTH!!!!

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    • NC
      NC
      January 29, 2010
      NC
      NC
      January 29, 2010

      Hi Luckepene,


      You are welcome. I believe in helping one another.

       

      Like what Pansies said, your Mom may need to go to a safer place, esp. when the neighbors are bothered. Does she live alone or you go there a lot? Given what happened in her case, she probably need to go to this assisted living facility to be safer. The place will keep her in the house without obvious trace (the door needs codes.)

      My father-in-law is in moderate severe stage. He now thinks the neighbors owe him or something. Everyone is the same to him now although he remembers my husband. He can ask anyone if he/she will take him home! He hates to live alone with caregivers. The thing is he can no longer live with us either due to his agitation and memory loss. He could treat any woman like his girlfriend as he is looking for a mate. He wants to work with my husband, which is impossible and has been impossible for 25 years (they are not even in the same field!!)

      Our solution is to go to this assisted living facility that is closer to us this summer. So he has to travel just for once. Fortuantely he is willing to come with us but he has no idea it is a group home. It is some problem and we have to tell him when we get the space.

       

      My husband has this health directive that allows him to send his Dad to a nursing home given the right diagnosis. His Dad signed it in late 2004. So you definitely need to get health directive or similar document so you can send her to a safe home given the doctor's approval. The home may require DNR or similar document as they need to know what to do with the elder.

       

      It is hard but you need to do this before things get worse.

       

      Good luck to all of us....

       

      Nina

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    • luckepene
      January 29, 2010
      luckepene
      January 29, 2010

      Hi Nina,

       

      Thanks for the info., I need all that I can get.  I know that she is not safe alone.  The next few weeks will be difficult.  I am taking her to md. on Wed.  I have to hear the md say that she is incompetant.  That is going to be a difficult day. What is DNR?

      She lives alone and I go there several times a week.  She will only take her blood pressure med.  The md previously prescribed zoloft and aricept.  She is convinced she only needs her blood pressure meds.  I think that her dementia is late stage.

      I must tell you all that she is my mother in law not my mother.  My husband is a only child. This woman is tearing us apart, we have been married almost 40 years. Please don't hate me.  I am so lost in helping him as I love him so.  I don't want to sound like a ungrateful spouse and daughter in law. It has got so difficult trying to be a good wife and a daughter in law.  I am hoping that his visit with her to the md this coming week will lead to some insight for him. This will be the only time that he will acompany her to the md.  He ask in advance for the md to give her a verbal exam for her incompetance.

      Please pray that he will get the answer he needs to do what he needs to.  Our daughter had previously taken her to another physician and she gave the diagnosis    but he states " he wants the md to tell him" that she is unable to live alone.

      As of two weeks ago a man from a assistant living came to her front door and she let him in and gave this stranger a tour around her antique filled home even to the basement. My husband knows this but still can't accept it.

      Thanks to you all for the kind words and support.

       

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    • NC
      NC
      January 30, 2010
      NC
      NC
      January 30, 2010

      Dear Luckepene,

       

      Of course I don't hate you. In my own culture, the in-laws are like our own parents too and my brothers-in-law all call my parents as they are their own. You have been married for a long time so it is natural that you are close to her.

      I understand it is hard for the in-law. We cannot say the honest thing as we may sound cruel or selfish. Yet I think since we do take care of these elders, we still have a say. At least we need to be honest about our limits. It is true. We are not Godess...

      You sound like your husband has a hard time to accept her dementia. My husband is similar but now he accepts that his Dad has late Alzheimers as it is obvious now. In the  beginning right after the diagnosis in Nov. 2006, my husband was a little taken as he didn't wish so.

       

      Did you guys get memory test or diagnosis on her? The diagnosis will help. You need to ask the family doc. for referral to a neurologist or psychiatrist to test her memoy. There is a verbal test that can be done in the office for 3 hours and my FIL did it in Nov. 2006.

       

      DNR is "Do Not Resuscitate" referring to the end stage or the urgent situation when your MIL may have heart attack or whatever that requires it. Given old age, some people want DNR but some don't. My parents and my FIL don't have DNR but they said it is up to the children to decide upon this. Similarly, the health directive or whatever document also should state what to do when they are in coma or in end stage situations or whether they need feeding tubes to prolong the life. My family all decided that it is up to the children. But My FIL did say he didn't want the machine if he is in coma. Normally people in the age of 80s or 90s are more conservative. Many younger people are more liberal about DNR.

       

      So this is needed in the nursing home as they want to know what to do when the time comes. I am sure your husband needs to think about it as well.

       

      Now about this info. from the doctor. The first thing to do is to get the right diagnosis. Some people thought it is not possible to get a diagnosis. It is not true. One can get the diagnosis given the memory test by the neurologist. Pet scan or ct scan may work but it is expensive and may not be accepted by insurance.

      The second thing is to ask the doctor to write a letter saying she is incompetent due to the diagnosis, and then the doctor needs to write something that says she needs 24 hours attention, thus she cannot be alone. This will work for 24 hours home care or nursing home. That says she cannot  be alone is sufficient. We got  both documents.

      Also, don't do it in front of your mother-in-law as she would object.

       

      I hope your husband can get to realize that he needs to do all these. It is hard and takes time...

       

      Good luck! Please feel free to email me so we can talk more.

       

      Take care,

      Nina

       

       

       

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    • luckepene
      January 30, 2010
      luckepene
      January 30, 2010

      Dear Nina,

       

      My husband has a appt. with his md. next week for the memory test.  I am hoping that once he gives attention to her answers that he will " Wake Up".  I also see the same md as he does, In talking with her in reference to this tearing us apart, she replied " I thought that she had been put into a facility for her care", he has seen her over the last three months as he was depressed over his mom.  The md is honest and he trusts her. Who knows, we are having a difficult time together due to her demands daily are increadible. The md told me try hard not to say anything else about his mother,himself, but at what cost is what I don't understand.

      Back to mother in law, she is covered by two insurances but is not willing to have any testing done. This woman is very hostile, angry, bitter, has no friends or immedite family that can tolerate her after one minute. 

       We went through her threating suicide earlier this year and the police were called and they removed the guns from the home.  Everyone was afraid of her accusing them of stealing from her. This has been a long road dealing with the stress and with her state of mind.  I have visited her, taken her places in hope that getting her out of the house would help but , no, nothing is enough.  I can't live with her and my husband says he can only stay for less than thirty minutes but he still will not accept her condition.

       

      Thanks for the message

       

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    • NC
      NC
      February 01, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 01, 2010

      Hi Luckepene,

       

      I hope you guys will find some solution fast. I think you can still try to get the attorny to work on the POA or guardianship as the doctor's letter may be good enough without diagnosis (it seems obvious that she is irritated and etc.)

       

      My husband does not like to talk about his Dad either. He calls him everyday (twice at meal time.) He really does not like to talk about it. When the conversation does not make sense, he just said it is the usual (the same repetition or nonsense), nothing detailed. I actally keep a journal in Word to write down the significant developement of his Dad in case we need such record to work with.

      My FIL is agitated if we do not follow what he wants. But it is not all the time. If the caregivers are on his term, it is ok. He is easy patient to them at this point. But it is still hard to deal with him. I cannot imagine the way you MIL is and etc. My FIL started talking about wanting to die last year as he thought we could put him out like the animal shelter. He was funny - he started out with not wanting to die thinking the hospital wanted to put him down (just monitoring for his heart failure in Jan, 2009), and then he began saying he want to die thinking we can kill him. I had to say it is not legal and etc. I am not going to be criminal because of his wish! Now he does not talk like that too much but he is lonely and depressed. We can only cope with it hoping he does not make too much trouble.

       

      Maybe you and your husband do need to talk about something else about yourself or your kids and other stuff. Don't dwell on his mother as this issue is depressing unless you are seeing her doctor and all that. My husband does not like to deal with it either unless it is something that has to be dealt with at the time. My experience is that my husband will come around when he sees how things develop into the worse situation. He just does not want to talk about it all the time. If we plan something for his Dad specifically, then he would talk about it. That is, he does not like to talk about it when he is relaxing.

       

      Anyway, getting the POA or guardian is important (actually guardian replaces POA and is more powerful.)

       

      Take care,

      Nina

       

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    • luckepene
      February 02, 2010
      luckepene
      February 02, 2010

      I made it through the weekend and did not mention her name and he never said a word about her either.  I see that he wants someone else do the "dirty work" as he calls it, he wants someone alse to get her someplace to help her.  I did notice last night that he will accept whatever the md says.  I find those words not very comforting, but I will be patient and give him some time .  I hope since she is seeing the dr. Wed. will shed some light for him. 

      I have been sick since Sunday and will go to dr. today. I must care for myself before I am able to care for someone else. 

      I am so appreciative for the kind words and knowledge that you have benefited me with.  I am feeling better emotionally.  I think that I have peace of mind since gaining more knowledge about things that I could not understand.  I have discovered that the more information and a clearer picture of this dreadful dementia.  I will continue to be supportive of my husband as he is having to discover all that we talk about for himself.

      I wish you a good day.

      Thank you for the emails.

       

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    • luckepene
      February 02, 2010
      luckepene
      February 02, 2010

      Hello again, Nina,

       

      I am back from the md, I have a ear and sinus infection. 

      Your  fil sounds  a lot like my mil.  I don't guess they could be at the same place at the same time, they have so much in common.  My mil now talls about a man in another town that wants her to move in with him.  There is not another man, I think she is hoping to make her son jealous.  I tell her to get the telephone number and we will call him and get directions so we can bring her to him. That is when she shuts up for once.  I have noticed that her phone calls have been fewer in the last week. I took the md's advice and have not talked about her over the the weekend.  I am thinking my husband is wondering, why. We have been snowbound for three days.  I know now that it is better not to complain about her and I see the man that I fell in love with more. They say live and learn and I am.

       

       It sounds like your fil is a handfull.  I can see he has a profound effect on you.  You must be a wonderful woman to posess the skill of dealing with him.  I was looking back and noticed that you posted a comment about ss disability.  I hope that you got your answers.  I didn't know that dementia tends to run in a family. It must be difficult for you. I am so sorry. You are so nice and have so much patience.  I understand  how you can be so very nice to other people.  I think of what a wonderful website this is and how fortunate I am to have found it.

       

      My heart goes out to you.  I am sure that you are and will be blessed with all the good life has to offer.

       

      Talk soon,

       

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    • NC
      NC
      February 02, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 02, 2010

      Hi luckepene,

       

      Thanks for the comment. The ss thing is not about me - I just tried to help out but AFA answered her question more properly. I have no one else who has dementia in the family.

      Well, my mother had mini-strokes and may have vascular dementia but she is ok now. My own side of family don't like to deal with it either. So now we say my parents are of sound mind. They are in the 80s as well.

       

      So it helps if you didn't talk about your MIL a lot in front of your husband. It is good. I don't know how many kids your MIL has but my husband is the only son that is nearby for my FIL (the other son is in Europe; his half-brother.) So my husband is responsible for everything and he cannot escape. He just does not want to talk about it all the time. My family is the same way. Anyway now my Dad has lots of health issue (he got kidney issue) so it seems we are always dealing with the elders.

       

      I got sick too last night- just some flu. Getting better now. My FIL is now in the hospital due to bad flu- he went in yesterday. Hopefully he will be fine - the doctors just want to test everything before he goes home.

       

      Thanks for your post.


      Take care,

      Nina

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    • dementiarobbed
      August 18, 2012
      dementiarobbed
      August 18, 2012

      I do feal for you and your family;our prayers go out to you.I am too;have been ROBBED from this horriable diecease.My mother that has this;each time that my father is admitted to the hospital,she ends up with a bladder infection that always places her in the hospital as well.My sisters and I are accused of being our fathers girlfriend,abuser,thieves.....ect...ect....the list goes on.Now the slapping has started.This isn't my MOTHER ! She has always been very kind soft spoken;and too....super smart. she also has been the care giver to my father of marriage of 59 years. My father is in a wheel-chair and stays sick.Things have turned around;now my father now has became my mothers care-giver.I am from a very large family and I am on a extended leave of absence from my work.I am suffering from a fall from work that left me with 2 bulging disc in my neck and 1 in my lower back ;And the brother that helps relieve me from the hospital stays ...he too has many medical problems.The rest of the Family.....they all work....have way to many things going on...to give my brother and I a much needed break from the hospital.I  forgot to mention my brother also works and he is handicapped.Thank God he helps so much.I am very open to any SUGGESTIONS to the help.We are living ONE DAY AT A TIME SWEET JESUS !!!

      So many people say go to the Social worker at the hospital.Have you had any luck ? This will be MY next MOVE.

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  • Concerned Guardain February 23, 2010
    Concerned Guardain
    January 28, 2010

    She sounds like a risk to herself. You need full guardianship over her person and estate. She will have no choice but to go wherever you tell her to go. Unfortunately, she may need to be taken by ambulance and police to the hospital to get her out of her house. From there, you can discharge her to a memory care unit at a nursing home or assisted living community (I don't know your specific situation but if she "wanders" - i.e., would leave the home then you'd need a locked unit and some assisted living situations do have those).

     

    Hopefully the Attny you find is a good one and ethical. They should really work as your MIL's Attny and fees payable to the Attorney will be reimbursed out of her estate back to your family, if she has it and you wish to recoup the money.

     

    She doesn't have to go to court. Your Attorney can get a "waiver of personal appearance" - and this can be done simply by having her doctor sign a form stating it is not in her best interests nor will she agree to attend. So, don't worry about that. But, it will be hard and probably emotional on your husband to have to involuntarily remove her from the home.

     

    Of course you will be supportive, as you always have and sorry about his upbringing. We all have our own stories...if we are truthful about them.

     

    God bless,

    J

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    • luckepene
      February 24, 2010
      luckepene
      February 24, 2010

      Dear J,

       

      The attorney told my husband that she would have to go to court.  I am calling the md tomorrow and get a appt for her to get a evaluation of her competancy.

       

      She has called 9 times today and I quit answering the telephone after 4 times.  She called my husband and wants him to go to her bank and tell them that the garbage man stole her house keys.  She filed a false police report on Friday about she was mowing the lawn and the garbage man stole two flowers.  She assused the garbage man of stealing her chain saw and gas can in Dec. 2009, we found them both in the storage bldg. they were in and she has put clothing over them but denys it and says " you know I forget ".  This man I am sure needs his job as everyone does these days and she could possibly have him put in jail.  The policeman said Friday evening that "he felt sorry for her, she worked hard on a farm her entire life to earn what she has", what a line of lies.  She worked in a factory over 45 years. This woman has been loud and bossy her entire life and thinks what she says that everyone must jump upon her command.  My husband is ashamed of her as she stays dirty and will not take a bath or wash her hair. 

       

      We located a assisted living facility that my husband toured on Monday as a drop in without a appointment.  He was satisfied as it was clean and people were friendly.  They will use a ankle bracelet on her to keep her from walking away, it alarms when she goes near a exit.  The next thing is getting her there.  I am not so sure about the local police helping as she tried to make friends with some of them. The attorney told my husband it would take about 2-3 weeks to get the guardianship.  He says "you can't rush the clerk of court". Personally I am not sure he is up to date on elder law.  He is call on Friday, we will see.

      I don't think attorneys give refunds as it cost $600. for him to prepare the paperwork.

       

      Another day, another problem it seems.

      Thank you for your feedback as I need all the help that I can get these days.  I have a bad heart and this is wearing on it I can tell you.4

       

      Thanks Again,

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    • Concerned Guardain
      February 24, 2010
      Concerned Guardain
      February 24, 2010

      Okay, I just want to explain something. The $600 is a very fair price. Once you get guardianship, you will have control over her person and finances. Therefore, you will have a legal right to that $600 back. Your refund will come from your mother in law's money because it is really "her" Attorney - not yours. Yes, you will get guardianship within 2-3 weeks. 

       

      Once you show your guardianship papers to the police, they will have no choice but to take her for her "own protection" and "health and safety" because you are the guardian and you are ordering her to be taken to the nursing facility. Of course, you want to try to avoid that so, if by any chance, you can coax her out on a ride or something - you can just go there with her. I would make sure one of you goes to her doctor's appointment with her next time she goes so that you can ask about a short acting sedative if needed. Not only for her own comfort but also for her safety. I don't believe in medicating the elderly for discipline reasons but for quality of life issues and to ensure their safety and decreased anxiety, I very much agree that sometimes chemical means are needed. But that is something you would have to discuss with her physician.

       

      I like the bracelet idea for your MIL. Sounds like it is needed.

       

      Well, I believe I may be younger than you and I don't have a bad heart and I can tell you that these types of situations cause all kinds of stress! I can't tell you how many days I have cried being overwhelmed and confused and frustrated myself...

       

      Hang in there,

       

      J

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    • luckepene
      February 25, 2010
      luckepene
      February 25, 2010

      Hi J,

       

      Thanks for the information again.  I certainly appreciate it.  I hope my husband  as used his Mom's check to pay the attorney.  I hope he is not in any trouble for that.  This was another blank check that she signed.  He has been to her bank and they are making checks with his name and address on them.  She already put him on her bank account and as the beneficiary on the account.  She will have only a checking account as she does not believe in but only one bank account.

       

      Oh, the stress of these difficult days.  At least my husband and myself after being married 40 years are so very much in love and every day is filled with " I Love You".  It feels good that we have each other.

       

      My mil will not take any meds is the problem.  The only thing is give her a injection and that I can do.   I don't know it the dr will go along with that.  My husband will have to take her again.

       

      Took a break and called the dr and told them of need for a mental competancy exam and a letter and a sedative for that day that he will take her.  Why am I shaking so?  Nerves, this woman has called me 4 times since 10 am and it is 1pm now and I will not go over there as she is threatening to "hurt someone".  My husband will be home in 5 minutes for lunch so I need to prepare him a small lunch.

       

      Thank you so much for your support as I need all I can get at the present time.

      My husband works full time and I am having do do a lot of the preparation to help him.

       

      Take Care,

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  • Concerned Guardain February 21, 2010
    Concerned Guardain
    January 28, 2010

    I went through guardianship. Guardianship legal fees are payable from the "ward's" estate (if there is one). I paid an Attorney about $1,000 to file. However, please let me tell you from my experience you don't need one. Look up in your state by googling on line "obtaining guardianship in (state)". The district and probate courts will have a form you will fill out called a "petition" form. I paid $180 to fill out this form and file the petition. Your mother has a right to legal representation but one can be appointed by the courts is she does not have enough money. You will simply go in front of the judge (you don't need a lawyer for yourself - I represented myself) and state the facts. The judge will ask you questions and the court appointed attorney or attorney you pay for out of your mother's money will state what they witnessed and have the nursing home or some physician complete a physician's statement. Your mother's attorney or court appointed one, will get a "waiver of personal appearance" if your mother is not capable of attending by getting a physician to sign her out of attending. It's really very simple. At the conclusion of the court appearance, you will be granted guardianship. Now, if your mother has enough money, you will have to be "bonded" meaning a bond will be filed against you in case you were to run away with your mother's money but minimum bond is about $33,000 so if your Mom has less than that - you won't need a surety bond.

     

    This was my personal experience recently...

     

    Hope this helps. And, you would be asking for guardianship over PERSON and ESTATE (if there is an estate). Don't worry, the judge will guide you during the proceedings...it will work out.

     

    Wishing you well,

    J

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    • luckepene
      February 23, 2010
      luckepene
      February 23, 2010

      Dear J,

       

      I tried google yesterday and there are no forms for NC so I guess my husband will see the attorney at 4 today.

      I have been very concered that she is not mentally capable to be in court.  There is no way that anyone would ever get her there. She has never been to buy groceries or buying any personal care products.  Not to mention that her clothes are much too large and are filthy and she will not spend the money for clothes.  She only will allow my husband to purchase her orange juice, milk, cookies, and cereal every week.  She refuses to let him buy her any food so he allows her to have her way.  I constantly worry about her nutrition.

      In 2009 her last living sibling killed himself by a gun shot.  She has threatened to kill herself and we had to have the police get the guns out of her house.  I located several more large guns in a back room closet but there are no bullets there.  I believe my husband is still afraid of her as she made him be as a child as well as telling him he  "was a mistake".  This man has hurt so much in his life.  I make sure that he knows that I love him so much and will continue to love him as I have for 40 years.

       

      What if she does not go to court?  Should we try to get a letter from the md in case she will not go as I am positive she will not go with anyone anyplace at the present time.  She claims that a nursing home is calling her 5 times a day and telling her they are coming to get her.  There is not any place that would call her.  This is another part of her psychosis associated with advanced dementia.

      My fil wanted her put in a nursing home over 6 years ago as she was driving him nuts.  He finally gave up and died two years after she became very bad. She was at the hospital when he died and yet she still tells that he died in the yard.

       

      Oh what a difficult road we have traveled with this woman.

       

      Thank for your support and information, I greatly appreciate everything and allowing me to vent.

       

      Bless you,

       

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  • Concerned Guardain February 21, 2010
    Concerned Guardain
    January 28, 2010

    I went through guardianship. Guardianship legal fees are payable from the "ward's" estate (if there is one). I paid an Attorney about $1,000 to file. However, please let me tell you from my experience you don't need one. Look up in your state by googling on line "obtaining guardianship in (state)". The district and probate courts will have a form you will fill out called a "petition" form. I paid $180 to fill out this form and file the petition. Your mother has a right to legal representation but one can be appointed by the courts is she does not have enough money. You will simply go in front of the judge (you don't need a lawyer for yourself - I represented myself) and state the facts. The judge will ask you questions and the court appointed attorney or attorney you pay for out of your mother's money will state what they witnessed and have the nursing home or some physician complete a physician's statement. Your mother's attorney or court appointed one, will get a "waiver of personal appearance" if your mother is not capable of attending by getting a physician to sign her out of attending. It's really very simple. At the conclusion of the court appearance, you will be granted guardianship. Now, if your mother has enough money, you will have to be "bonded" meaning a bond will be filed against you in case you were to run away with your mother's money but minimum bond is about $33,000 so if your Mom has less than that - you won't need a surety bond.

     

    This was my personal experience recently...

     

    Hope this helps. And, you would be asking for guardianship over PERSON and ESTATE (if there is an estate). Don't worry, the judge will guide you during the proceedings...it will work out.

     

    Wishing you well,

    J

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    • luckepene
      February 22, 2010
      luckepene
      February 22, 2010

      Hello J,

       

      The past 5 days have been so very difficult.  My mil has started calling the police and tells them that the trash man has stolen two flowers while she was mowing the grass.  She has no grass to be mowed in the winter. She called them Friday evening over 9 times and they do not understand dementia or alzheimers so they say she is a sweet old lady and they feel sorry for her while this has been so difficult for us as they call us every time she calls them and we must go and calm her down.  She has become cobative with me as she tried unsuccesfully to hit me Friday evening.  I grabbed her wrist to keep her from hitting me.  I would not harm her in any way

       

      Finally today the FL2 should be completed by the md.  My husband has apt with attorney Tues. to file for guardianship.  I wonder how long it will take to get through the court.

       

      We must get her to a asasisted living or a alzheimers home, the assisted living is her in town, the alzheimers is located in Virginia.  We did go there this past weekend.  They are not sure they want her at the assisted living

      facility as they are afraid she will walk away.  They are willing to try. 

       

      My husband and myself have never been through something so difficult as dealing with  her state of mind, she is certainly not the person that she was.  I can't understand why she is so focused on her antiques and her home.  We already have been told that the house and personal property must be solf to pay for her care since she does not have long term care insurance.

       

      By the way she is my mother in law and my husband is the only sibling and I am his only source of support.  We have been married  for 40 years.

       

      Thanks for any assistance that you can provide.  Any and all commets are greatly appreciated.

       

       

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    • NC
      NC
      February 22, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 22, 2010

      Hi, luckepene,

       

      It is me again.

       

      Have you tried to find the assisted living facility FOR dementia/Alzheimer's? Do not go to the regular assisted living home where there is no locked door. In the assisted living facility for dementia, there is a locked door and only number codes entered can open the door. This is the one we found for my FIL.

      Apparently she is progressive and is more combative. My FIL is in the similar situation: he got combative in late 2008/early 2009. It is the stage because he got progressive and lost many important knowledge due to the loss of his memory. He forgot it is his own house and forgot my husband at times. Naturally as they lost more memory, they got more confused and thus they will misread anything and become defensive.

       

      I hope you will get guardianship soon. The other thing is the POA. There are some POA such as tax documents which only requires her to sign it. As long as you can make her sign the document, you can get that POA for that particular thing. I am not sure about health directive, as the witness has to sign too. In general, as long as she can sign, no one official will come to bug you with that.

       

      Take care,

      Nina

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    • luckepene
      February 22, 2010
      luckepene
      February 22, 2010

      Hi Nina,

       

      She is still capable of signing her name. The atty my husband went to told him that it is too late to get POA since her dementia has progressed to psychosis that she was unable to give him POA.  She did give him rights to sign her checks and be the beneficiary of the bank account. That was taken care of in Jan. at the bank  She has BCBS and medicare but she owns her home and expensive antiques. We were told the belongings would have to be auctioned off and her home sold.  When her financial items were liquidated then medicaid would pay the balance of the nursing home or rest home.

       

      Things just changed, the assisted living center does not want her, they say she may wonder off and they would not be responsible.  My husband located another facility that puts ankle bracelets on her, if she goes near a door alarms would go off.  At least we have a place close by and my husband is much more content since he followed through on this one. Thank you, Jesus!

       

      Oh, Nina, Thank you for all of your support. It has meant so much to me.  You gave me a reason to keep going on as it has been so difficult.

       

      We have the FL2.  The md did not do a very good job at filing it out but it is done.

       

      Now my husband will see the attorney and hope to get a emergency guardianship if he can.  I was told today that a emergency guardianship can be obtained.  Another day we hope.  But being realistic it may take longer than one day to get the guardianship.  One step closer.

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    • NC
      NC
      February 22, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 22, 2010

      I am glad she got medicaid. It is lots of work to sell her things... I am expecting more work for my FIL's house after he leaves as well. Right now we are still on the waiting list as #3 (much faster now.) Hopefully we will get it in May; now the home is going to make assessment on him.
      Oh by the way, the home will give her assessment and she may not like the questioning. Well they should know how to deal with her.

       

      Once your husband gets the guardianship. things will improve. Perhapts you should ask her doctor to prescribe some sedative so she can calm down when she is moving to the home.

       

      God will follow you through this. Don't worry. The police can only say what do you want them to do? I am sure they understand. Most people by now will tell you to send her to a home. Same thing for my FIL. My FIL tends to bother the neighbors as he thinks she can support him or even lives with him in her house! I don't understand this... He does not understand my husband's role anymore and to him anyone closer to him is any caregiver. He could be tricked like that!

      He is facing her front door everyday in his couch. I feel sorry for her! We tried to cover up the window so he does not "peek" at her house but he wants the sunlight at times. So I give up. The only way is to move away.

       

      Take care,

      Nina

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    • J
      J
      February 23, 2010
      J
      J
      February 23, 2010

      Yes, very hard and sad indeed. It is hard to slowly watch your loved one slip into a sort of "madness". I am dealing with my father and I am the only sibling capable and able and willing. So, I know the stress. I too have a supportive husband.

       

      You don't need a lawyer to represent you. You will need a lawyer to represent your MIL. You can file a petition to the courts and find that on line if google guardianship in your state. Usually there is a fee of a couple hundred dollars to file the petition. You can recoup the legal fees (in most cases) from "the Ward" (your MIL) after paying for her Attorney. The Attny for your MIL will get a "waiver of personal appearance" so she doesn't have to come to court but she could go and the judge would see for himself/herself how your MIL is functioning. You can site all your reasons in a simple statement and judge will ask you to testify as to why you want guardianship over person and estate.

       

      Now, because your MIL owns a home and that home has value, your husband will have to have a surety bond usually. I don't know what state you reside in but this pretty common. It is like an insurance policy against you so that you cannot run away with MIL's money. Sad we try to protect someone and then we too are suspect. But, it is just the course you take in this battle.

       

      Once you have guardianship over "person and estate" - you will be able to manage her money, some states require a special waiver to sell property so ask the judge while you are in the courtroom about giving you permission to sell her property too. If she/he tells you that you are covered - great but if not, they can order the filing of permission to allow the guardian to sell her personal property so get it all done at once. You don't want to have to deal with this after.

       

      You can also petition the courts for emergency hearing (2 weeks usually) and then get the guardianship. If you know approx. money she is worth, ask HER Attny to file the bond ahead of time. Or, this will slow the process. Most Attny firms that deal with this can bond you themselves...through a company. It just might be easier.

       

      Good Luck,

      J

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    • luckepene
      February 23, 2010
      luckepene
      February 23, 2010

      Oh Nina,

       

      All that you are experiencing and you are helping me.  I am so grateful for you, please know that.

       

      My mil only has medicare and she owns her home and many expensive antiques and has a sizeable checking account as she refuses to have two bank accounts.

       

      The policeman states he feels sorry for her that she is all alone and her husband has been deceased for only 12 months ( it has been 5 years) and he has no problem to respond to her calls for help as s and even he filed a false complaint about the garbage man for stealing two flowers and her house keys.  She showed the report to my husband on Friday.  The dispatcher calls us every time she calls them and it has been so difficult.

      We did check into assisted living and they will not have her since she has become combative even though they have codes for the doors she could walk out when someone else opens the door they will not be responsible for her.

       

      At the other nursing home they have a assisted living area away from the bed confined patients.  They have a ankle bracelet she must wear that will send out a signal if she walks near a door.  They are prepared to give her haldol as she will become combative and upon her entry they will give her a private room until she becomes adjsted. The next Huge problem is " How does my husband get her there"?  We talked about that last night and still don't have a solution.  Any thoughts?  She trusts no one as I said before she is a truly cruel person and she is quite verbal and physical.

       

      You mentioned taxes on the guardianship papers.  I don't follow that, please explain.

       

      The nursing home told my husband that they will admit her for six months which will give him time to sell her property if need be.  They said that her bank account would have to be liquidate before medicare will pay anything and I guess that means auctioning the personal property and try to sell the house.

      My husband has no memories of anything good while growing up as she told him that " he was a mistake" and believe me this man has hurt and still hurts terribly.  I constantly reassure him that I Love Him and will always love him and I do so very much.

       

       I see by your experience that you have had a long wait.  We are fortunate that they want her as soon as he gets guardianship.  I hope that there is such a thing as emergency guardianship so we can get her help she needs desperately.

       

      God Bless You as you a remarkable woman!

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    • NC
      NC
      February 23, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 23, 2010

      Wow... You have lots of stuff to work on. So you are saying she has no medicaid. Well, selling the stuff will give her more money for the new home.

       

      Most homes told us we have to tell my FIL somehwat that he is going there because he will know when he sees the home. It is not a private home. My FIL has trouble understanding this kind of assisted living home and is afraid of nursing home (nursing home defined as the hospital setting type.) We only have waited for this home since Dec. So it is not bad. We waited longer to get to the home though as the home care agent told us it was not the time yet but then it is too expensive anyway. So you may need to tell her she is going to move. But since she wanted to move to the regular one last time, you can tell her similar story and don't bother to tell her the details that would confuse her. She may want her furnitures and etc. You can tell her you will get them later. She will forget about it trying to get adapted to the new home.

       

      One thing I don't understand: why is that they are not responsible if she wanders? It is their job. The one we picked is the assisted living facility for mid-stage and late-stage Alzheimer's and they must deal with it. If the new home is a regular one, then they would tell you they are not able to contain her. Hospital is like that too - no locked door. So we always have caregiver next to my FIL overnight/all day if he is in the hospital for short illness.

       

      About the tax, if you will be her guardian soon, it is not a problem at all. In general, IRS only allows 3 years POA using the form f2848. So after 3 years, one has to fill out the form (f2848) again. This form asks your husband and his Mom to sign, I believe only your husband needs to get it notarized and she does not have to go out for it. We did one for my FIL in 2007 and it worked. We will do this again this year. For the state tax form, each state is different.  For Illinois, it is similar but it may allow POA without time limit, and my FIL has to sign the state POA form and my husband has to sign in front of the notary. Now what we do is still ask my FIL to sign and IRS or state tax board does not care if my FIL's signature is "competent" or not.

       

      Guardianship is the best one as each bank also has its own POA paperwork. They don't seem to like POA or trustee (my husband is the trustee for his parents' trusts by accident.)

       

      That is all. I think at this point, you should focus on getting this guardianship. I thought she does not have to go to court as she is inompetent. The doctor's letter should be enough saying she is psychotic and etc. I didn't realize the lawyer cannot ask her to sign as POA because of her dementia plus being psychotic. I was wondering where was the line for it.

       

      Good luck and I hope your MIL will be settled down soon.

       

      Nina

       

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    • luckepene
      February 23, 2010
      luckepene
      February 23, 2010

      Hello Nina,

       

      The dr only filled out the FL2.  I guess my husband should call her about a letter as she will not be present in court.

       

      What a difficult and time consuming family matter.  I have breast cancer and have my hands full.  I realize that my husband needs me and I will be here for him as long as possible.  I am disabled due to the cancer so I do not work so that allows me to focus on my husbands needs.  He is my priority.  This man has been by my side for 40 years and through open heart surgery six years ago.  So we have bonded through crisis many times.  He is a wonderful man and he hurts because of his Mom's illness. 

       

      We can't tell her as she will go off into the woods and die of the cold.  She is defiant about leaving "her home", she would become violent is he told her before he arrived at the home.  It has been so long since she agreed to leave home I don't think that she would reaconize this place.  I am hoping anyway this will not be so difficult for my husband, we have two grown daughters and one has agreed to go with her Dad to take her there.  The nursing home states they will be ready for her with haldol to calm her down as needed.  They want to be notified when she will arrive so no one gets hurt as she can become violent.

       

      Nina, This is so very hard.  Even though we are following all legal steps to the letter.  Admitting her is not the most stressful it is getting her there.  I wonder if needed would law inforcement could be called to assist in removing her from her home.  My grandparent both needed a nursing home and they were calm God fearing people.  What to do and how to progress is a daily discussion with much pain for us.  I feel angry with her as she tried to hit me twice Friday night with my husband present.  She was so angry after she had lied to the police which I did not discuss with her as I will not agitate her and have not.

       

      Well I guess my husband is with the attorney about now.  I hope this goes smoothly for him.

       

      Thank you again for your support and allowing me to vent my frustrations.  I am so appreciative. Please know that.

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    • NC
      NC
      February 23, 2010
      NC
      NC
      February 23, 2010

      You know it is also our worry. How can we fly my FIL for 2 hours and how he will take this new home! Hopefully he is not that agitated as long as my husband is next to him. My husband has better relationship with his Dad - not perfect though.

       

      I am a cancer survivor so I know how you feel. Are you done with your treatments and are you in remission? I am cured for the rare cancer (uterus  cancer.) Fortunately I got cancer and chemo long before my FIL became a widower in 2004. I finished all treatments in 2001. I had it started in 2000. Sometimes I am not willing to do so much as I worry about my own health. I am not that healthy due to lack of hormone and etc.
      You need to make sure you stay healthy. You want to support your husband and it is good. But don't risk your own health.

       

      I heard that some people used the ambulance kind of thing to send the elder to the nursing home but it may agitate her. In the beginning you guys may need to be in the home everyday to check things out. My husband plans to stay near for at least 2 weeks as the new home is in Vermont and it is not in our town.

      Maybe your MIL really need to take some sedative in the long-term since she is very mean.

       

      We have a worse situation - we are not in the same country. So my husband cannot be the guardian. He is POA and trustee. For now it works out.

       

      I understand you have a hard time right now.... Please take care of yourself.

       

      Nina

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    • luckepene
      February 24, 2010
      luckepene
      February 24, 2010

      Hello Nina,

       

      I believe that you must have a full set of angel wings.  What a blessing that you are to everyone that you have touched their lives as you have mine.

       

      I am in remission.  I get sick so with stress sure sets my body back. I will survive as my husband needs me and he is so dependent upon me.  He suffers from epilepsy after a head injury during a your in Vietnam.  He only remembers waking up in Japan in the hospital.  Because of the seizure meds they make him forget things so I try to be there when he needs me as I do have a very good memory.

       

      My mil is calling constantly and I must keep the phone on.  We have a 3 y/o grandaughter that was diagnoised with luekemia in Oct.,2009.  This has been overwhelming with such a small child, she has 6 blood transfusions but in the past 3 weeks she is doing good. That is our youngest daughter, the oldest daughter gave birth last Tuesday to a 6 lb boy, their older son is 12, what a lot for her to adjust to and for my grandson.  They will do fine as she is a RN.

       

      Hey, I am not complaining as much today, what a relief!  The attorney told my husband it make take up to two weeks to get to court.  He also told him that she needs to go back to the md and get a better "competancy exam" as the md did not do a very thorough job the first time.  That should not be difficult.

       

      Do you mind if I ask where are you from?  I was born and raised in NC in a very small town and my husband is also from here.

       

      Good luck with your fil.    Why do you have to fly him to another state?  Talk soon and Thank you so very much.

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    • Miss Jane
      April 19, 2010
      Miss Jane
      April 19, 2010

      This is something we will have to do soon since my mother in law has dementia and can no longer make her own decisions, however what happens if she has two children but only one is involved with her care and handling all of her affairs?  Her daughter is very distance from us.  My husband wants to get her POA and Guardianship, will his sister have a say in all of this if she is not involved with her care?

       

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    • Concerned Guardain
      April 19, 2010
      Concerned Guardain
      April 19, 2010

      When I went for guardianship of my father, there were five children, other than myself, and one living sister. The way it works is this: all living members of the "wards" family (in this case your MIL) have a right to know about the guardianship hearing and protest it if they choose. However, being that the daughter is so far away, this probably won't bode well if she tried to fight it. I think it is safe to say that your husband should just move forward, present the evidence to the judge, and even if the sister were to fight it, she most likely wouldn't win because of her distance and lack of involvement in her care. Just go for it. You are doing what is in the best interests of the mother in law (in this case his mother). Take care and good luck!

       

      -J

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    • Concerned Guardain
      April 19, 2010
      Concerned Guardain
      April 19, 2010

      When I went for guardianship of my father, there were five children, other than myself, and one living sister. The way it works is this: all living members of the "wards" family (in this case your MIL) have a right to know about the guardianship hearing and protest it if they choose. However, being that the daughter is so far away, this probably won't bode well if she tried to fight it. I think it is safe to say that your husband should just move forward, present the evidence to the judge, and even if the sister were to fight it, she most likely wouldn't win because of her distance and lack of involvement in her care. Just go for it. You are doing what is in the best interests of the mother in law (in this case his mother). Take care and good luck!

       

      -J

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  • Been there September 19, 2011
    Been there
    January 28, 2010

    You cannot get POA for someone with dementia.  You have to apply for legal guardianship for her and her estate.  A POA can only be signed by someone in his/her right mind.  It sounds like your mother does not fit into this category with a diagnosis of dementia.

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  • Cheryl Kennedy September 05, 2011
    Cheryl Kennedy
    January 28, 2010

    does the spouse need to get a permission letter before she apply for a misplaced car title so the vehicle can be sold

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