Hi John,
I can affirm your comments with at least as many examples in my own 58 years
I am very grateful for all the good friends in my life that have been willing to listen and support me
through the months of depression I have endured.
People who were unknown to me also helped in crucial ways.Even some of the well intentioned but mediocre psychiatrists who tried their best are on the list as well.
Many of us who have survived live to help others not give up hope The best, Margaret G Jax Beach
Hey John.
After reading all this back and forth between you and Kay, I had an idea.
Maybe someone should edit( maybe it already exists) a Studs Terkel like book just of personal stories about surviving depression.
Kind of like the personal stories in the Big Book.
All the unsung heros.
DBSA is soliciting videos of people, aren't they?
What I had in mind would be in print.
Best regards, Margaret Jax Beach
Please stop being snippy with John. He has been swimming upstream for many years to get to where he is today. You should also know that anyone with a mood disorder can be VERY fragile and if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
Perhaps you could submit your story to your local newspaper.
Have some neighbors and friends over for coffee once a week. It will become a support group for anyone that has trouble in their lives.
Margaret
You are a true fan and supporter of John. That is a wonderful thing, as we all need people who support and believe in us.
You asked me not to be "snippy" with John. I am not trying to be snippy with him or with anyone else. I am simply questioning his values and his outlook on all of this. Aren't these forums supposed to be a place where we can share our differences of opinons? Or, are we all supposed to think the same way and react the same way? I do believe John is more than capable of defending himself, though it is very nice that you are his friend and are also sticking up for him.
Frankly, I didn't realize I had so much power, that I could cause someone to become depressed again. In fact, I don't believe that is possible. I would never give up that much control over myself to one person who happened to disagree with or question my motives. You are abolutely correct when you say I have not read very many articles that John has written. I only came onto this site at the end of July. Still, I think I have gotten a pretty good sample of his writings. He is very articulate and well-spoken. His intellect is really up there. He puts a lot of research into the things he writes. For that, I give him the utmost of respect, and I admire the hard work he seems to put into every article he posts.
No, Margaret, you need not defend John against me. I am but one person who has expressed her thoughts, experience and feelings on this forum. I am no more and no less.
Please don't you try to make me out to be more than I am. I simply do not have that kind of power over people, nor do I wish to have that kind of power over people. I believe that people are responsible for themselves.
I hope you have a wonderful day.
Kay
Thanks. For being the kind gracious human that despite the underlying tones you continue to try and sell yourself to Kay.
Kay has done her time in a variety of events and needs to realize you don't owe her anything or anyone anything. I am happy when someone from our background gets to be the speaker. Kay can be a speaker but she must leave the security of her internet and apartment and stopping using lack of time as an excuse to not reach out. Kay send your story locally, send it to a publisher, send it to the local TV, send it to the local newspaper. Start for yourself the path you want.
John doesn't have to give back. John is already giving more than you or me. Stop beating him verbally with the "what are you(john) doing beyond the blog, newsletter, book, lectures my word Women. isn't that enough!@# he is only one man living with the disorder but doing the work of many. He is doing the work most of us "don't have the time for"
We have time for what is most valuable in our life. We make choices everyday. I've raised three boys and by the time they are teenagers and smelling themselves they could fully exist without us tomorrow. don't paint the wow is me picture. Reach out. Don't expect handouts. The potential is there for everyone of us if we are willing to take the right risk. Get up the eighth time after the seventh fall. That is where the strength of wellness exist.
Kay you need to blog, you need to talk but you need to back down a tone on John.
John is too important to me and my life to be badgered about what price or who sets the day of awakening on any author.
Be happy for him. Be happy for anyone that is able to pull from the depths of depression and tweak out an existance with bipolar nipping at their heels.
Submit your story for his next book. Read his book if you haven't and if you have - reread it! You have missed the part about taking control of your own wellness, thus controlling your future.
Subscribe to his newsletter - it is free and you will get a little taste of what he is doing for us - behind the scene on a daily basis out of the goodness of his big tender loving heart.
This is from the Margaret in Jax Bch, FL.
You know I have reread all of these comments and these are my thoughts...When someone speaks or writes in the public forum, it is to be expected that someone will offer up criticism. It seems to me John has taken this all in with the proper spirit by wanting to keep her in the loop. I think that some of what she is saying is certainly in the realm of constructive critcism.
I believe John is aware, there is a problem of "ego"
that we all have to be on guard against. I am not
saying I believe this is a problem but a potential problem.
No one has been born yet who has all the answers in dealing with our mood disorders. We need to listen attentively to all of us in the same boat.
Kay has some points and so do you. All are free to write and I'm glad for other input or comments on topics. It just seemed it was becoming a personal attack on one of my favorite people - I encouraged Kay to continue to blog here or anywhere but also to be accountable that "wellness" comes with lots of hard work and sometimes the good thing as a human is to be happy for someone else -even- when you can't be happy for yourself or your current situation.
I think Kay is just in a slump and needs to know despite bipolar or any mood disorder sometimes we need to communicate our needs and not bash someone for having found what he needed. Kudo's to John for what he has done and the lives he has touched. What a wonderful sensitve - yet fragile spirit. I dont' want Kay or anyone else to take the wind from beneth his wings - I'm still grounded and far from a steady state of wellness -but I can pause long enough to enjoy the view of someone with a similiar story to mine - finally finding some peace in his spirit and soaring to blue skies.
John is a perfect example of someone that has fallen the seven(or uptenth) time and gotten up for the eigth. That makes him Great in my book and worthy of a taste of Orlando or other conferences that help him share his wonderful spirit and story of hope.
This is in response to Magnolia..
Amen to everything you said. I am glad we weren't in a bar somewhere or we might have thrown some real punches to defend John.
Seriously, we would be diminished big time if he took all of this too personally and withdrew.
My impression is that Kay does not understand the man very well, since some of her comments were so off the mark. Maybe we can all get together with one of those big $7 chocolate sundaes at G's in downtown Disney sometime in the future. Sorry I missed meeting you. Margaret Jax Bch ,FL
Dear John:
A bar room fight is as good as it gets? Dude, I don't know where your head is, but I can promise you that you and your cronies will never have the opportunity to beat me up in a bar. I don't go to bars anymore, and I don't plan to ever return to one.
Previously, I stated that it seemed like you and your group of women were similar to a clique of people from high school who are all backing the popular football player or cheerleader (or whomever). Now, I would venture to say that you have crossed the line into bullying. I am somewhat amazed that my posts have caused some of your women to become so angry that they would punch me out in a bar! How civilized is that?
Sure, I recognize that I questioned the validity of what you are doing and the personal gains you get from doing it. I pointed out areas I found to be a bit distressing and ways that I saw you could improve your position in life. The thing about putting yourself out there for all to see, is that you have to take the good feedback along with the constructive criticism. If you are not strong enough to do that, then I really think you are in the wrong business - or at least in the wrong position in the business.
If fighting in bars is as good as it gets, then I NEVER want to get there. I will be more than happy to stay where I am and live more or less comfortably doing what I am doing.
I remember being a national speaker and getting lots of great feedback from people. Was it all positive? Heavens no! Some of my best learning moments came from the people who dared to challenge me, what I was doing, and what I was saying. They gave me good food for thought and often, put a whole new perspective into it. Through these people, I learned and grew in ways I never would have, had they not taken the time to point out a different perspective about what I was doing.
I sense a feeling of defensiveness here, and I also can tell that you are delighted with the support you are getting from your gals. It just about tickles you plum to death. Very well, I can see that you are not into any constructive feedback from anyone who might disagree with - not so much about what you are doing, but the method you use in accomplishing your mission.
Another genleman wrote that we do not all have the same roles; some of us will be like Mother Teresa and some of us will be like Hitler. I do believe that there is room enough for everyone in this group of people. Who am I to say what you should or shouldn't do? Again, I was simply playing the devil's advocate to give people food for thought. If you go your merry way and all you get are positive strokes from everyone, you decrease the opportunity you have to pick up some new ideas and different perspectives.
So, carry on the way you always have and enjoy the clamoring of the ladies who idolize you and worship the very ground you walk on. These ladies, who would defend you in a bar, because someone dared to challenge your writings - "oh no, that awful Kay, she is just the meanest person on this forum, to question your motives for what you do". My, my, it must be very gratifying to have so many girls jump to your defense. And the way that you absolutely concur with them and what they are suggesting is very disheartening. It reminds me of the way people behaved back in middle school.
Perish the thought that I should have a following of groupies who might punch someone in the face, to defend my honor. I can think of much better ways for someone to defend my honor, thank you very much.
Carry on, John. Do what you do! Life will cycle and things will change. Seize the moment for what it is. Align yourself with people who adore you. You will keep yourself in a nice, little vacuum where no one can touch you. In the meantime, I will be biding my time, waiting for the tide to turn. Nothing every stays the same. Even my doctors used to tell me, "you can get through this depression; life is not static; it is subject to change". Only the future will know what those changes might bring about.
I wish you a wonderful day; may you reap the benefits of all that you do, for there are many. This forum shows just a small fraction of the benefits one enjoys while speaking and writing at a national level. Of course, for every positive action, there is an equal and opposing negative reaction; for every moment of sadness, there is a moment of joy. It has been said that we would not be able to fully enjoy the great moments if we did not have the awful ones. Yes, you have had your share of awful moments; that can be said of all people who experience bipolar disorder.
But for now, surround yourself with only the people who sing your praises and who defend your honor. I hope it lasts; I really really do. For as sure as the Roman empire grew to supremacy, it fell to demise.
I certainly hope that does not happen to you.
Kay
Dear John:
It's pretty easy to laugh when the joke is on someone else. But that's okay, laugh away. Even the meer suggestion of violence is not a laughing matter for me. My husband became violent when he was manic, and he did violent things like spit in my face, drag me around with his feet and throw my head to a concrete floor with his bare hands. He started fires and trashed vehicles and demolished mail boxes. He threatened my son and I, at will. No, violence or the suggestion of, thereafter, is no laughing matter to me.
Certainly, I have questioned your motives and asked you to explain things. I really thought that forums were a safe place to do this. How silly of me to believe this. I admit, I am pretty naive.
It's okay, John. You win! I am not going to get into this little back and forth anymore. It is pointless. You have your cronies on your side and they will do anything to please you - including making jokes about punching someone out at a bar. I hope you laugh and laugh and laugh. A good belly laugh is great for the spirit and the soul.
No matter what happens, I will know what the truth in you is. I don't have to know you very well, to figure that out. You and all your cronies have said that it is not your responsbility to help others attain what you have attained. That is the mindset of the "elite" few in the mental health movement. It is THE reason I got out of it. It seemed to be very hypocritical and self-serving. The very things and people we initially lashed out at, we have become just like them - only worse, because we are in a position to really understand the people in the trenches. At least some of the psychiatrists and other mental health professionals can plead ignorance to the plight of people with bipolar. Their learning is, after all, mostly from books.
I hope you are delighted that you and your gals have made a funny. I, for one, did not take it to be a joke, nor did I think it was funny. The bar fight joke was bordering on intenet bullying and I could have you reported. Oh, but officer, it was only a joke. We weren't REALLY suggesting that we might actually punch someone out at a bar. Don't you get it? Isn't it funny?
But then again, I forget that this is YOUR safe haven. Perish the thought that anyone would dare to challenge you or yours. You and your buddies have shown me what you are made of, and it is as I suspected. You, at least (I can't really speak on behalf of your gals, as I don't know them), are one of the "elites" and you love it that way. You will bask in your glory and pay about two cents worth of attention to the people who got you there in the first place. Let's face it; without all those people in the trenches, there would be NO national mental health consumer's movement; there would be no psychiatrists or mental health workers. You would be out of a job if it were not for them. How dare you turn your back on the very people because of whom, you now have a paying job. What is it that happens to people once they achieve this certain amount of status? Why can't you co-exist with the glory and still help others achieve what you have? You say that you help people through your newsletter and your inspirational posts. Well, you may inspire many who are followers, but I believe you will be hard-pressed to inspire those of us who have a different understanding of the situation.
Oh, and by the way, I really don't care for the word consumer, as it implies that we have a choice to pick and choose amongst our treatment options. Yes, we have a certain amount of choice of SSRI's and anti-psychotic medications. But these are imperfect, at best, and they create for many, horrible, debilitating side effects. I "consume" these products because there is nothing better out there for me. Of course, there is the special attention you get from being at "the top". That could pull anybody out of a major depression.
I hope you and your lady friends are pleased with yourselves. You guys won the fight. You won the battle. You have effectively managed to kick me out of this forum, with your clever joke of violence. All I know is I will never treat anyone that way. I will live with my head held high, and I will never make a joke at anyone else's expense. Don't pretend like you really thought you made a joke at no one's expense. You and the others did exactly what you set out to do. You got rid of the "bad" person who just wouldn't let you go on your merry way and be the "famous" person you are without a little constructive criticism. Be sure to stay cozy with the moms of kids with bipolar and the gals who are singing your praises. As long as you do this, you shall remain insulated from the real world. And that is good, I suppose, because I am not sure that you could make it, anymore, in the real world.
You have sent condescending and patronizing e-mails to me. You have shown me what you are made of. I know I made the right choice to get out of the national limelight. Because those who were once stepped on and degraded, just can't handle the fame and the glory. They become just as bad as the system they fought, and around and around it goes.
For those of you who worship John: look out; let's see how long he can maintain his sainthood at the top. What goes around comes around; I am a firm believer in that. Go ahead; send me a nasty e-mail or post. You can't touch me anymore. I shall return to my life and not mess with this type of crap anymore. I only came here out of curiosity and I certainly don't need this forum. I was doing fine without it, and I shall continue to do so. Be careful when you make jokes at another's expense. What you think is so funny may come back to bite you in the butt.
For now, I am outta here. It was a rather entertaining experience while it lasted, but even I have my limits on what I will take. John, is this the way you react to all, who question you? Are you so afraid of what others might have to say? If so, I really wish you well in your life as a national representative, because you are going to need it. I am surely not the only one who can see right through your guise of pretending to care about everyone, through your newsletter and your inspirational posts. Like I said, for every opinion one person has, someone else has a different one. From this site, I learned that it is not okay to have a different opinon from the established norm. Shame on me for the mistake I made. Shame on you for the joke you made.
Kay
John,
Don't flatter yourself so much John. I hardly obsess about you. In fact, I completely forget about this site until after I come home and check my messages. Lately, there has always been an e-mail from the Bipolar Connection.
I just realized that you, and the moderators of this forum, love the fact that we were debating, because it breathes new life into the site. How silly of me not to have realized this before. John, not to be the bearer of bad news, but I DO have a life. My time here has been fleeting and, while it has been entertaining to a certain degree, I used it as an outlet for pent up emotions and frustrations. It was a great feeling to pound on the keyboard for an hour or two - here and there.
And who was obsessing about whom? You could very easily have just written me a short, dismissive note. Rather, you chose to get into it for your own self-gratifying reasons. There was a pay-off for you or you wouldn't have done it. My pay-off was in getting some of my pent up manic energy out of my system. And, I had a little bit of fun while I was releasing this energy. There is nothing quite like a good debate to get me going.
It was interesting while it lasted. Now you can go back to this hum drum site, where everyone agrees with you. I'm sure that will make you feel more comfortable. What was it that you said? Oh, that's right, this conversation is closed.
Kay
Dear John,
I am writing to you because I owe you an apology.
I have allowed myself to get carried away by this entire debate thing, and it has taken my eyes and my heart off the most important things. That would be: that all of us people with bipolar, specifically, and people in general, have got to stick together and be good to each other if we want things to go well in our lives.
I had absolutely no right to try to tell you how you should run your life or how you should carry out your duties as a national representative of the mental health movement. You are most certainly entitled to do what you want to do and how you want to do it, without my interjecting my opinion about it.
About the venting - the truth of the matter is that I did have a lot of built-up emotions - feelings that I carried home with me from work after listening to customers swear and yell at me all day long, because they were not getting the service they needed on their appliance. I am a supervisor and we take escalated customers all day.
Before I came onto this forum, I did not allow myself to vent about my work to anyone or anywhere. Unfortunately, this site - and you, in particular - became the place for me to do that. Of course, it was in a back-handed, indirect way and, for that, I am very sorry.
I would like it if we could call a truce. I believe we can be civil to each other, in spite of our philosophical differences, and I would like that very much. You obviously have done some remarkable things in your life, and the outpouring of support for you, when we were debating, is clear proof of that. I will have to keep my eyes and ears open for more postings by you.
What do you say? Is it too late to make amends? I promise I won't try to tell you how to run your life anymore. I will agree to disagree and live peaceably together, no matter what the topic.
Please let me know your thoughts on this. I do appreciate your serious consideration of my apology. Although it is a bit late in coming, it is sincere and heartfelt. I am not the type of person to try to bash anyone, and I realize that by what I was typing, you could get the impression that that was exactly what I was trying to do. That just is not acceptable for me to do. Honestly, I did allow myself to get carried away with the principal of the debate, and I lost sight of the person behind the debate. That would be you.
I hope to hear from you soon,
Best wishes and positive thoughts your way,
Kay
Kay,
Hi it's Magnolia.. been a way from the blog but reread your post tonight.. I'm glad you vented - no one really meant to hurt you with the joke Margaret directed to me. She and I have never even meet, yes we both admire John, that is true. but I'm nobody's croonie and I really don't think either of us is the real knock down biker type to have a "bar fight" We where not laughing at you - we where laughing at life and trying to lighten the mood - having no idea it would hurt you.. We are not groupies and I blog lots of places that jokes go between internet connections that have never meet - kindred spirits sometimes take off on their own topics, jokes or ideas and start whole new chains of conversations.
I was trying to encourage you to blog, John is grown but not a big boy.. he is soft, kind and gentle and only about 5.10., not sure of his weight and don't want to hurt his feelings but he is smaller than me. I'm 155 or more sometimes.. Really chunky for only 5.2. Anyway...
He is the one at the conference, who as people break into tears, he has em pull up a chair and puts other things aside to listen. He is in the daily struggle with this illness, maybe not the same as you or I, but in the struggle none the less.
What a horrible thing you and your son had to deal with violence and the little comments "what was called joking" you thought was bullying or really even hinted at being serious..WAS NOT.
I don't do bar eithers (hate smoke) but honestly no one knew your background and that it would cause bad memories to resurface.
I'm glad you had somewhere to vent, I feel for you dealing - with retail customers can be overwhelming - and stress does effect Bipolar people. I know that first hand.
I am glad you, your son and kitties are safe. I am glad you have softened your heart and opened your eyes that we as consumers
(although I know you don't like the word - I'm not sure what else to use-so as not to refer to the therapist or doctors that help us - but don't take our type of meds or even really know our struggles)
need to stick together..
I wish you would have just "outted" you where getting the shaft at work and under too much pressure - maybe this whole blog would have been different.. hindsite is just that hindsite.
Let's look to the future, you have come along way, you are an example to those you work with and your son - we can and do contribute in various ways despite our bipolar or despite or various geographic regions.
Hey Magnolia,
I very much appreciate your kind and thoughtful response to my last post in this forum. You're right, no one could have known my background, so it seemed that a harmless joke would be just that - a harmless joke. Normally I have a great sense of humor. This time, however, I must admit to feeling overwhelmed by all the negative posts that were coming my way from all the women who admired John. Still, I should not have carried on the way I did, and I firmly believe that we are all here for a reason, and that there is room for all different types in the national mental health movement. I did go on and on about helping others, and I realize that is not everyone's calling. I am very happy that you and John (and many others) have had the opportunity to become friends. Isn't that one of the things that we would hope would happen when we go to national conferences? For me, it was one of the many blessings I received while working "the circuit". I had my day in the sun, and if the urge should strike to do it again, then I may consider becoming active in the movement again. For now, I am content to live my life with my sons and my cats and my work. Things are always in a state of change, so who knows what may happen?
Again, I appreciate the time you took to respond to me. It does seem that your heart is in the right place and that you are trying to reach out to all kinds of people. I admire that quality and I encourage you to keep it up.
Who knows, maybe we shall meet one day?
With best wishes,
Kay
Featuring Content From:
By using this service, you accept our Terms of Use. Please read them. The consumer health information on is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice or treatment for any medical conditions. You should promptly seek professional medical care if you have any concern about your health, and you should always consult your physician before starting a fitness regimen. Copyright © 2012 Remedy Health Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Dear John,
As I suspected, your life is "rich" - rich with what matters - people and contacts. I was not alluding to a life of luxury eating caviar and spending time on yachts. I was talking about the connections you have as a person who is a speaker on a national level. I would not trade my car, as I am quite partial to my Honda Civic, old though it may be. I would trade the world of friends you have, even though you said, in one of your posts, that the people in your support groups move on and never come back to give you any support. Obviously you have managed to make wonderful friends elsewhere.
To me, rich is not defined by how much money we have or what kind of house we live in. Rich is defined by the quality of our lives as measured by the number of deep friendships, love and connections we have. As a person sitting in a small town in a large, but sparsely inhabited state, I have no friends with whom I can share my dark stories of depression, widowhood, suicide and homelessness. My husband died two years ago and there are no support groups here for people with bipolar. At a national level, you are always in demand, and as you just wrote, you have many friends and people whom you count on when things get rough for you. I can count on my therapist when I see her once every six weeks. Oh, and she says I can call her if I ever need anything, but when I call, she says she won't call me back because that would be enabling my poor behavior.
Yes, I would trade my life for yours. I don't care what kind of car you drive, what kind of home you live in or how much money you make each year. It is your lifestyle that I envy. In your position, you are very fortunate to have met many awesome people who truly care about you. What do you do to ensure that others who are not so fortunate, are afforded the same opportunity? When you spoke of your support groups, I sensed some disdain in your voice, because it appeared that they did not give you as much as you gave them.
Obviously, with this most recent post, you HAVE made friends and you HAVE people you can count on. That is what makes life worth living. Oh, and it doesn't hurt to get all the attention that comes with being a national speaker. All the applause and the hand shakes and pats on the back. None of those feel too bad, after a long day on the conference circuit.
No, you inferred that by lucky, I meant you were driving fancy cars, cruising on luxury yachts and living the high life in some condo, eating caviar by the pool. Not at all. By lucky, I mean you have the opportunity to have great friends, get recognized for what you do on a regular basis, and share all of your experiences with those of us who are not as fortunate as you are.
In all this, you still have not answered the question that I continue to ask. What are you doing to ensure that others "beneath" you are given the opportunity to have the kinds of experiences you do - by speaking at conferences and getting immediate praise and acknowledgement for what you have done, by sharing on these forums and having people enthusiastically (for the most part) respond to your posts, by being exposed to great things such as museums and theme parks and experiencing them firsthand. These are the kinds of moments that are priceless. These are the kinds of "riches" I was referring to.
I believe it is called something like "share the wealth". For the vast majority of us, we shall live our lives vicariously through people like you who tell your stories of life without depression/mania. And while it can be inspiring to hear what you have to say, it is so much nicer to experience it firsthand.
Kay
Dear Kay
I know John has dedicated a massive amount of time to bipolar issues since 1999. Thus he has gained a reputation. He has made the effort to join with others and meet and connect and become friends.
I am based in the UK and made the effort with the help of others to get to DBSA in Orlando - where surprise surprise I made many friends and contacts ... including John. Yet only a few months ago I also felt friendless and alone. You have to be prepared to make the effort. There is not a support group - contact DBSA and learn how to set one up.
I have a lot of help and advice I can offer - but not through these pages. Send me a message
Dear Kay
I know John has dedicated a massive amount of time to bipolar issues since 1999. Thus he has gained a reputation. He has made the effort to join with others and meet and connect and become friends.
I am based in the UK and made the effort with the help of others to get to DBSA in Orlando - where surprise surprise I made many friends and contacts ... including John. Yet only a few months ago I also felt friendless and alone. You have to be prepared to make the effort. There is not a support group - contact DBSA and learn how to set one up.
I have a lot of help and advice I can offer - but not through these pages. Send me a message.
You do not find special people by sitting at home on your own !
Nick
http://www.healthcentral.com/bipolar/c/1928/profiles/
Dear John,
Thank you for finally answering my question. I do appreciate your honesty. I have to say that I disagree with your reasoning, though. Many people in "the trenches" have been working very diligently in their own towns to make something of themselves. Most of them have been doing this with little to no resources and certainly, with no glory. These are the kinds of people I am talking about, who could use a little boost or a good connection to get to where you are. Each person deserves to be a national speaker just based on the fact that they have experienced, firsthand, the pain and loneliness of bipolar. To me, those are the only credentials a person needs - to be able to tell their own story and what they have done to make things better or worse for themselves. These grassroots people work hard, behind the scenes, on a daily basis to make friends and encourage others to do the same. They simply need the right opportunity to be recognized for what they are - diamonds in the ruff.
I was somewhat dismayed at your response that you are doing nothing to help others to attain what you have obtained. This is part of the elitist mentality that is prevalent amongst many national speakers, who think that they have "earned the right" to do what they do.
When I first started doing statewide organizing, I was amazed at how much effort so many individuals had put into getting things started. They just needed someone to help them get organized and put it all together. We found many a budding speaker in the process of helping them get organized. And for every time I got to go to a conference, I helped make it possible for others to do the same. There was plenty of room for all of us. We each had unique qualities and stories to offer. Not everyone wanted to be a speaker. Some preferred to work behind the scenes. But mostly, all of them wanted to be recognized for what they were doing. When you give a speech, you get immediate praise afterward. People applaud you and then, often, come up afterward to shake your hand and to make a comment or two. If this isn't instant gratification, I don't know what is. It can be a very satisfying experience. Even when you bomb and do a disastrous speech, people appreciate you because you tried - something many of them would never attempt to do.
My point is that each person deserves to have a chance to be a part of the national picture, if that is their personal desire. I don't think they have to pay a certain amount of dues in order to be eligible for this. They already paid their dues in the form of the debilitating disorder called bipolar. This is their membership card. It is not about how many support groups they helped to start or how many articles they got published for various magazines.
Just my thoughts on all this. Certainly, we do not have to agree about any of this. And while this makes for intriguing debate, my worst fears were confirmed when you told me you did not have to do anything to help anyone else out. "Let them do it on their own and pay their own dues." As I said, I believe they have already paid their dues by having experienced this disorder. Anything additional they have done is icing on the cake.
If people do have to "pay their dues", who decides how much they have to pay and to whom they have to pay it? Does it mean more if I have worked exclusively with mental health professionals, with family members or with persons who have bipolar? What kind of dues do I have to pay? How does a person "earn the right" to do what you do? How do you quantify that? What makes what you have done any more special than what someone else has done? Granted, it sounds like you have done a great deal of work - most of it voluntary - to get where you are today. So, why not take some of that and spread it around to others? Every time I did outreach at some tiny little town, I was fascinated by the stories that I heard from the individual people I met. No, they were not polished and some were not all that well spoken; but the story they had to tell was incredible. Hearing other people's stories put my own tale into perspective and it could be a very humbling experience indeed. Those are the kinds of stories that people need to hear.
Like I said before, there is plenty of room for everyone in this group. Each person has something unique to offer. That is what qualifies them to do what you do.
One person made the comment that I would not meet any new friends by sitting in my apartment at home. There was a time when I would have agreed with that, but now with the Internet and on-line forums at our disposal, the general public has become accessible to me right in my living room. I would venture to say that I could get a self help group started, just by sitting in my living room, doing outreach to people on-line. Certainly, it is better to do it in person, but I could get a good start here at home. The thing is, I have to work every day, sometimes 8-12 hours a day and take care of my teen-age son, and that doesn't leave a whole lot of time to start a support group. I know how much energy and time it takes. If you are going to do it right, it is a full time job. And I am no spring chicken anymore. Compound that with my bipolar disorder and it doesn't make for a good combination to get anything started. But just because I don't necessarily have the time to do all of these things, does that mean that I shouldn't have the opportunity to be a speaker at a national conference if that is something I would like to do?
Just more food for thought. I do appreciate your writings. You are an articulate and well-written man. I can definitely see why people are drawn to you.
Have a wonderful evening,
Kay
Dear John:
I've got to make this brief, as I worked a 12-hour day, today, and my time is short.
I'm glad to see that you don't think of the people in the trenches as peons. They are the backbone of the national mental health "consumer's" movement. Without them, there would be no well-known speakers or annual mental health conferences.
Still, after all this time writing back and forth, I don't understand what it is that you do that is so special that no one else in mental health is doing it. Do you care to elaborate on that point?
Certainly, I believe each individual has something valuable and unique to contribute; but to go so far as to say no one else is doing it? Well, I question the validity of that comment. What exactly is it that you DO do?
I am aware of the obvious - your writings and your newsletter and your posts to this forum - your national presentations that are apparently inspirational - the support groups you have helped to form.
I have never had the pleasure of reading your newsletter. I, along with many very talented individuals, once started and maintained a monthly newsletter for people with psychiatric issues. It was quite popular in its time and considered to be somewhat radical for those in its statewide community.
Pardon me, for I digress. I am very curious to hear your answer. Because, as good as I thought I once was or as powerful as I once perceived myself to be, I never thought I was the only one doing what I was doing. There were many of us doing the same thing - just with different style and unique methods. And there was always time to help another individual achieve what I had achieved. My time was not so precious that I could not share it with others, teaching them how to become more self reliant and to become speakers, at any level - if that was their desire.
So, John, what is it about that which you do, that makes you the one and only person who is doing that? I'd really like to know.
Have an awesome evening,
Kay
Hi Kay,
I went through your comments carefully, and I can understand some of the important points you're trying to make. Some of these resonate with me, but I'm hoping that my balanced viewpoint will help you gain perspective on the whole concept of outreach to "our population" in general.
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Sekhar Subramani, I have started a few DBSA support groups in New Jersey, and have a web community for mood disorders at http://moodgarden.org ; I met John McManamy when he lived in New Jersey and had the opportunity to work with him on some DBSA groups.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with John's background, but he had the McMan Weekly newsletter emailed out on a regular basis with numerous articles on his website http://mcmanweb.com , all done in his own time, taking a gamble that the site and his newsletter would reach an audience of his (and our) peers, people who struggle with mood disorders, and educate them on brain science, current events and news items related to recent research developments and problems with medications, side-effects etc. With a background as a journalist, he put in all his efforts to learning the minute details of the current research, attended psychiatrist conferences, often almost as a peer, and gathered cutting-edge information, which then made it to his newsletter. The electronic newsletter was distributed free, with a request for donations, most of which came from the professional community, I believe. The content of his newsletter was so rich that many professionals used it as a source of current information and made contributions to John, making it an opportunity to earn a livelihood, on a modest scale. All this while he was recovering from some of the most difficult times after his diagnosis in 1999. This phase of his background is pretty much an effort at "when you're given a lemon, try and make lemonade". He wrote his articles and started his website primarily to educate the rest of the mood disorder community about the tools they needed to move forward with their lives. "Knowledge is Necessity" is the motto on his website.
McManweb.com is still one of the most authoritative sites out there, and you can find links to it (and the articles) from any website worth its salt, including famous sites like Dr. Ivan Goldberg's DepressionCentral.com
For years, John has given to the community using his own strengths, with no idea of what the reward might be. I have started support groups in NJ and a website moodgarden.org , and I help support and educate people who participate on my message board in a limited way, and I've been fortunate that it grew to be a successful community. I've given presentations at the national and regional level, though speaking and writing aren't my strong suits.
What you are referring to as the rich life or elitist attitude, I think I and many others have to be aware of, and it's hard to avoid a disconnect between "hobnobbing" with the upper echelon and staying in touch with the population base that gave me the visibility and the credibility to get to that successful place to begin with.
Then it becomes a struggle for how you can use your time to reach the most people you can, without being in the battle zone.
I find myself at a loss when I attend support groups these days, but I'm pleased that so many volunteers have stepped up to the plate and take it seriously to run the groups regularly, sharing the leadership and passing their knowledge and experience along. I still get greeted warmly when I attend one of these groups, but I tried to facilitate a meeting one day and it was a disaster. That's a catch with moving on in life, you have different goals, ideas and action plans from a newer plane, platform.
I don't feel any animosity from the group members that I'm not in the trenches doing what I used to do best. My role became more strategic and less tactical.
But I cherish the experience from the days when my own recovery took place in these groups, and none of us forget it - our dark days are never forgotten and they have been the driving force behind the achievements. We never forget our "roots". In some of John's writings, he points out that he prefers to spend time with people who come up to him and share their stories, instead of a fancy luncheon with the "powers-to-be", many of whom, I admit, often seem to forget what got them there. Even then, I don't think they do so intentionally; it's what they have to do to keep the machine moving forward and create an environment for others to gain perspective and work on their recovery.
A role model, if you will.
It's not that John is reaching out to the masses on a regular basis directly - it would be impractical, but his workshops and lectures provide an environment where people get together, get motivated to move forward in their lives, and most importantly, they network with each other, and see that a "peer" like John dug his way out of the pits and they have a chance to do it for themselves too. All these conferences and workshops, the real benefit happens when people network outside of the main events, hopefully discussing the lessons they learned at the events.
Sure, many of them cannot be at such events. But the Govt. and other organizations do sponsor people to attend these conferences, if they cannot afford it.
Was John in the right place at the right time, with the right talent to go with it, and get to where he is today? Absolutely. It took years, and it got easier. I'd say the same for myself. I was clueless while I was working on my recovery over a decade ago, but now I have the semblance of stability (though every day is still a struggle). But there's one important thing that keeps John, myself, and other advocates ticking : a sense of responsibility to show stability and often pretend that we have it all "together", because it's a position that you want the world to see, that a fairly successful lifestyle is possible with this illness.
I also believe that people eventually have to deal with the question of "what's in it for me". You have an opinion I share to a large extent, that I have a calling to selflessly reach out to everyone I can help, and it's not about touting my successes. But mental health outreach is not my profession. It has given me a platform to gain self-confidence and be better at a full-time career that has given me a lot of what I need in my life. If you knew me, or read about me, you might think that you would like to trade lives with me anytime. But that's not really the point. We all have to take stock of where we are today, and move forward from there.
I am also aware that we all have different personalities, and it's easy to be judgmental of others. For example, I may (and do) think that John is promoting himself with the praises for his book, the awards given to him, the blogging as an "Expert Patient", etc. etc. But that's just my opinion, and it's strongly biassed, because (a) I don't believe in promoting myself that way and (b) I don't know how to promote myself that way. The society we live in, this is how it works. You have to be your own publicity machine, and tout your own horn, and gain more recognition, and have an opportunity to reach out to our community in other ways. When Bill Gates travels for his Foundation and charitable causes, he receives red carpet treatment everywhere, and has photo-ops with disabled children or people dealing with HIV+ and AIDS, and stays in the most luxurious hotels. I don't question that he's making a difference. It's just done differently. We have to accept that everyone is not going to be a Mother Theresa, and that model will not always work.
Now, to some points you make, I am in total agreement with you. Do I want to know that the hotel had real towels, or the extra-curricular activities while I'm here deep in depression? Perhaps not. But that's not what blogs are about. If John were to write his blog the way he writes his newsletter or his book on Living Well with Depression and Bipolar disorder, then why bother reading the blog? This is an account of his days, and it has the quirks that John has, and it's for all of us to accept that we have a certain style, flair. One day, you read about Risperdal being approved for treatment of children with bipolar disorder, and that's an all-business piece; the next day, John probably writes about his walk in San Diego, and the flowers and the birds, and I may not even bother reading it. But it's a chronicle of his life. If I wrote a blog, and mentioned that last Saturday, I watched a great movie in my new HDTV and marvelled at the picture and sound quality, the expensive audio and video cables I bought, I'm sure it's an extravagance most of our peers cannot think of, while they struggle with no insurance and aren't sure if they can afford the full month's supply of Lamictal. Maybe it would be wiser that I don't write about my HDTV. Some readers may find it pompous and have that exact thought, while others may look at it as the possibility of a person who struggled with bipolar disorder and several hospitalizations, and come out of the fog, and made something of his life. I suppose the reality is somewhere in between. Because I don't forget that I couldn't have dreamed of this life ten years ago. But I also can't drop my life and sell the TV and donate it to the person struggling to pay for Lamictal. Where is the end to it? Even Bill Gates cannot solve all the problems. We are only being role models and offer hope, help and support to those who feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
Many people, once they recover, just move on with their lives and helping people with the illness isn't a priority for them. Sometimes I think, how ungrateful, it's your turn to give back to the community. But you know, that's an individual decision. You yourself point out that what you would like to hear is such a story, where someone made something out of their lives.
Can some of the blog entries be toned down to take your comments into account? I think so. It is helpful to have feedback, and I say to myself, maybe I should be careful when I brag about my lifestyle. But even when I do, people try to be supportive, and even ask me if I'm on a manic ride, trying to live a lavish lifestyle. I try to tone it down a bit, and ask myself if I'm going overboard with something. But that's me. The noble concern for people with the disorder having an opportunity to tell their stories, that's you. And as pointed out, there are opportunities to tell such stories, because many sites are soliciting such stories. But between you and me, I think they are looking for such stories to gain funding for some project or the other. It's the way the system works. All of them can write books, not be able to get published successfully, and feel the disconnect with those who are successful. It isn't anyone's obligation to make them successful, their success may just be getting stable, finding a minimum-wage job, and get the health care they need and live a happy life within their means.
That's our society, isn't it? When I watch movies, I look at the stars who get top billing and get paid tens of millions of dollars, and I also look at the extras, often strikingly beautiful, and I wonder what they got paid for being on the same escalator as the star for a few seconds in the movie. A few hundreds maybe? Do the big stars come out to help each of those extras and say, I'll make you a big star too? A weak analogy perhaps, but you get my drift? Recovery is individual, and some of us do what we can to help.
But I do take away the message from your writings, "don't foget who put you on the pedestal". In that sense, I always hope to keep my feet on the ground. I may not be able to help as much as I wish I could, or as much as the other person needs, but I'd like to think I did my best, and yet led a lifestyle that's comfortable for me.
This is the longest post I've ever written, but you did make me think, Kay. Thank you for that.
Best regards,
Sekhar
Dear Sekhar,
Thank you so very much for your insightful, intelligent, thought-provoking response to my posts. Yours was one of the most sensible posts I have read, in quite a long time. I absolutely agree with you that not everyone can play Mother Theresa. If we were all like that, then this world would be a pretty boring place. What makes our world so interesting, is that we are all different and unique; I feel like there is room enough for everyone, even for those who dare to disagree with the established norms or the "experts" who consistently publish articles in forums such as these.
Kudos to you for all that you are doing. I am very glad to see that you have not forgotten where you have come from. I certainly don't think everyone has to wallow in the darkness of depression; I just think it never hurts us to remember those days of confusion and darkness, because it keeps us on our toes and gives us even more reason to do as well as we are doing.
You spoke of role models. Definitely, people such as John and yourself and many others, serve as role models for the many who are still caught in the throes of mania and depression. They can see that there is a light at the end of the dark tunnel. It gives them hope and encouragement.
My point is - there is a big difference in the way you put things, than the way John did. There is a big difference in the way G.J. puts things than the way John does. I read your post with keen interest, and it gave me much-needed food for thought. As you stated, I really didn't need to hear about towels, yes real towels. No matter how bad off we are, I do think the vast majority of us have towels to use after we have bathed - even in shelters. The way it was written, left me with the impression that John never gets to use real towels, and I strongly doubt that is true. What was the point in telling us that? Perhaps what he really meant to say was "plush towels, yes real plush towels". I have been to many gorgeous hotels when I have given speeches and the hotel rooms are quite nice, with many amenities, not just plush towels.
I digress. Again, I really appreciated your taking the time to write such a well-thought out post. I can see that you took the time to consider both sides of the coin, and from that, you came to your own, independent conclusions. I am sorry to say this, but it appears that John is taking on the opinions of his many fans, by agreeing with them whole heartedly when they say such things as, they want to punch me out in a bar. For heavens sake, can we have a grown-up moment, here? Are these people so threatened by what I have to say, that they are on the band wagon to "get me"?
I haven't seen something so ridiculous since I was in middle school. No, I take that back; I have seen this kind of mentality in the gossip rags I often read. The likes of Paris, Nichole, Lauren and Heidi. For those of you who are not familiar with those names, just pick up a weekly tabloid. You will know very quickly who they are.
Thank you, again, Sekhar, for your positive, yet critical assessment of the situation. You are a fair and even-minded person. I hope you will consider writing more posts for this forum; better still, would be to have you write articles for it. I would very much enjoy reading about what you have to say.
One more thing comes to mind, when I read people's posts. I have seen many "experts", not just John (on this and other forums) throw out letters, after names, like candy to kids at a parade. While I suppose this gives validity to their articles, I feel like I am getting all these degrees and affiliations blatantly thrown out there for me to see. I am not completely impressed with how many letters a person has after their name. Certainly, those people worked hard for their degrees and earned every single one of them. I, too, could put letters after my name when I write. I choose not to, however, as it is a distancing thing to do - a demarcation between "us" and "them" - kind of like the CEO's huge desk that he sits behind, to put distance between himself and the people who come to see him. It clearly delineates who the boss is and who is not. These things can be very subtle, but they are very powerful and they do serve their purpose.
Well Sekhar, time to get back to my real life. I have a son and two cats with whom I have the opportunity to interact every day. This is what brings me true pleasure. The simple moments of laughing or talking with my son or us playing and cooing with the cats until they purr away. I love those purrs! They can make any stressful day go down the tubes - just that simple, yet mysterious sound that cats make. I've often wished that I could purr. I think it would be a terrific stress reliever.
Have a wonderful day, Sekhar. And, please, don't be a stranger. You can e-mail me at kayomholt@hotmail.com, if the mood strikes you. I would welcome any kind of communication from you.
Best wishes,
Kay