You raise some very good points Eric.  For the most part I agree completely with you.  Especially on your insights into the low self esteem mentality playing a key role in the mood and behavior of the one suffering from bi polar disorder. I also agree completely with setting boundaries.

The point I half disagree with you on is about not issuing ultimatums.  TYpically the ultimatum should be issued after one has gone the route of pointing out constructively about how the behavior of the bi polar sufferer is megatively impacting them or their relationship. 

Having lived and been married to a bi polar suffere for a few years I have learned that most often even being contructive about pointing out the harm the sufferers behavior causes tends to have much the same effect that issuing ultimatums do.  Which is as you describe, the person will shut down and just assume they will be left anyway. 

The difference tends to be more in regards to the bi polar sufferer who is not in denial of their illness as opposed to the sufferer who is still in denial of their illness.  My ex wife who was in denial saw any mention of her negative behavior as an attack on her whether it was constructive or not.  There were other people in her life, friends and some of her family members who raised the same concerns that I did about her moods and behavior and she treated them with the same disdain that she treated me.

That seemed to be a reoccuring theme with her mood, is that she would go from feeling not worthy of my love for her or to have me or anyone else that cared about her in her life to thinking we were all attacking her and trying to make her feel unworthy and worthless by telling her about how her behavior was hurting us.

I have known a couple other people who suffer from the disorder and one, who is also in denial acts almost identically the way my ex wife acted, and the other who has accepted their illness and is getting the proper treatment for it, is much less defensesive when people constructively remind them of their behavior's negative impact.  In fact the one who isnt in denial is even much more understanding even when they are going through their more rough patches.

I think the original posters husband falls into the denial category just based on what she posted.  With that being the case she most likely chose to be contructive ,as you urged her to be, in her dealing with her husbands moods and behavior and now after 22 years has gotten to the point where she realizes no amount of constructive urging is going to get her husband to try and modify his behavior much less get any additional treatment for his illness which it clearly sounds like he needs. 

Eric you sound like a very knwoledgeable and honest man and I commend you on your ability to not only talk about illness but to also honestly describe how you feel living with it.  You are obviously not in denial and you are obviously putting forth maximum effort in your treatment.  Thats why you even in your bad times would not be as bad as the original posters husband.  Because even though you have you bad times you still know and accept your condition and you also accept responsibility for it, which is something the orignal posters husband needs to do if he wishes for his wife to remain married to him.

Kudos for your insight Eric.

Well Guest, you do bring up some very good points and I agree with some of what you say.  However, you being severly Bi Polar ( your words), have never been on the recieving end of the abuse someone with Bi Polar disorder is capable of, and even though you deal with the disorder having it yourself, you will never really understand what its like for someone who doesnt have the disorder to endure the abuse like the orignal poster has for as long as she has. 

So you have absolutely no business saying that anyone would be wrong for divorcing from or leaving a spouse with Bi Polar disorder especially if there has been as many years of abuse like the orignal poster has described.  I respect your religous beliefs about being agaisnt divorce and all of that, but this discussion is not about religous beliefs it is about the merits of either staying with someone like the original posters husband, who and even you agreed with me on this point, is not doing as much as they should in their own treatment  regimen or leaving them. 

I think it is you who is acting like you think you know more than you do.  I am no expert on Bi Polar disorder and I dont claim to be, but after having lived with someone who suffers from it I learned an awful lot about it.  Now you may understand way more about what it is like to have the disorder and live with it being a part of you, but the orignal poster does not have the disorder and neither do I and I understand way more about what it is like to be in her shoes, which is where my experience comes in and is the side of the fence from which I am giving advice to her.

Now your suggestion about both of them being in counseling is a great idea, that way if there is any possible way she could find other options of working through this issue other than leaving her husband she might be better able to see and possibly explore those issues.  You seem to think I take marriage lightly, I assure you I do not, but that does not mean I advocate staying in an abusive marriage just because other peoples religous beliefs may be against it. 

The book you recommend is a very good choice and I would also suggest she read it and everything else she can get her hands on about Bi Polar disorder.  When I first learned my ex wife had the disorder I read everything I could find I had an almost rabid need to learn as much about it as I could because in the beginning I too was not ready to end my marriage and wanted to try to do anything and eveything I could do to save it because I also believ in the vows.  I would not have made those wedding vows if I hadnt believed in them.  I also tried "the leaving for the purposes of reconcilliation", as well as setting the boundaries just as described by eric as well.  But in the end my ex wife did not believe she had a problem and even on the rare occasions she did think she had a problem she was still adamant that she wa snot bi polar and that she was in control.  So eventually I had to give her the "or else" ultimatum, and like you yourself stated I had to mean those words.  So when my ex wife didnt heed that ultimatum I left and the "or else" became a reality.

I dont regret my choice to end my marriage not in my heart or in the face of God either.  The reasons for this are simple, I did eveything I could and ultimately the choice became not about not breaking the vows, since she had already broke our vows when she was unfaithful to me in the midst of one of her hyper-sexual mania moods, but about not letting myself be drug down into an emotional hell with her.

The main problem is when the bi polar sufferer refuses to believe they have a problem and refuses to get the proper treatment.  Its very much like an addict in regards to the denial.  For an addict they must hit rock bottom before they realize they need help and then go about trying to get it.  The orignal posters husband like my ex wife is still clearly in a state of denial.  Sure he is taking meds, my ex wife took meds too, but as I stated above the meds are only one of the first steps.  If the sufferer refuses to take the other steps along with the meds then they are not getting properly treated.  When the sufferer is in denial they typically ( just like an addict) will not listen to reason, will not admit they arent in control, will not understand that their behavior is wrong or harmful, and most importantly wthey will see any attempts by their loved ones or anyone to help them in any way as an attack and they will very vehemently defend themselves.  In other words their abuse will get worse.  Even you say that her husband may not be receptive to her attempts to get him to do more in terms of his treatment or be willing to understand how his behavior is affecting her.  After 22 years, and everything the orignal poster says she has done in order to get her husband to start working on his treatment more, her husband still has yet to really take a more active role in hos own treatment.  So clearly at this point something drastic is most likely the only recourse she has left.  So I have to disagree with you about your notion that she hasnt done enough on her part to help the over all situation.  In fact from her post I would say quite the opposite.  She has not only doen her share she has done more than her share and has even done his share as well, and as such if she does choose to divorce I personally dont see how God would condemn her since she did the best she could with what she had( I dont personally believe God would condemn anyone for ending a marriage like that), but as I said this isnt a religous issue.  So at this point I think its her husbands turn to put forth some effort and if he doesnt than why should she hold a marriage together that he isnt willing to do the same for.  Even you say she should not be slave to him and I agree completely with you on that.

I commend you on your obvious acceptance of your condition.  Judging by your post you seem to not only accept your condition but you sound like you got a good handle on how your disorder can sometimes make others around you feel and how destructive your behavior can be.  That makes you light years better in terms of dealing with your disorder than the orginal posters husband or my ex wife.  You arent in denial.  I think that you must be a very strong person to be as insightful about yourself and your disorder as you clearly are.

When it comes to the financial issue, I am affraid I have to disagree with you on that as well.  Her husband has clearly demonstrated that his judgement is more than a little impaired when it comes to dealing with money as well.  She is lucky that he hasnt begun spending more vigorously, but believe me when I say that he will if his behavior in this area stays unchecked.  Her only choice in this area is to not let him have access to money unless she can supervise his access.

My suggestion, and it may sound like I am advocating treating him like a child but I am not, is to give him a weekly allowance.  She should sit down at the beginning of each month and she herself should examine the budget without her husbands imput.  Then she should do the mandatory figuring in reagrds to the bill and the main costs she must meet each month, then with whats left over set aside a modest amount each month to dole out to him on a weekly basis, that will set boundaries for him so that he cant spend more than he has.  But she must be very firm on this because he will fight her tooth and nail over it and his behavior will get out of hand about it, but she must stand by her guns.  This way his behavior wont jeopardize their home.  She must also make sure their bank account cant be accessed by him and that any money they have can only be access either by her alone or that he cant access it unless she is with him and authorizes it.  But this will be a hrd road to go and she will have problems with him on this.

But overall, her husband must get more treatment, and if he doesnt and refuses to even discuss it, then no amount of extra effort on her part will get him to, then at that point I would suggest to her that it would be time for her to cut ties with him.  Her husband right now hasnt had to deal with any real consequences of his abuse to her and as long as he doesnt have to deal with consequences for his behavior and actions then he wont be apt to get any more help for his bi polar disorder.  But even if she does deivorce and then he chooses to get help, there are limits to what a person can endure and there is no reason why she should have to stay with an abuser for the rest of her life no matter what vows she takes or promises she makes.  After all her happiness matters to and her marriage is just as much about her happiness as it is about his.

ALso, and I forgot to add this point.  I do disagree with you on the fact that she knew he had the disorder prior to their marriage.  As I stated in an earlier post, the symptoms may not have been very visible before they got married.  My ex wifes werent.  Only her depression manfiested itself early on, and then only on rare occasions.  Her more abusive symptoms didnt show until much later.  Bi polar doesnt just manifest itself full blown so easily which has got to be one of the biggest reasons why it has been misdiagnosed so often over the years.  Sometimes it takes years for the symptoms to get bad and there is no definite time frame that they will get bad sometimes they may be mild and stay mild.  Also some of the bi polar people I have met have become very good at masking their disorder.  So much so that a lot of people dont see the symptoms at all.  Especially those who are in denial of their disorder.  But once you have lived with someone and been married to them for some time then thats when you get to see the symptoms more easily.  So judgeing the origan poster as having being blind or maybe not wanting to see how bad her husbands disorder was certainly is not fair to her.  Now it is true sometimes people dont want to acknowledge a problem because they may not understand it or want to deal with it.  But it is not so cut an dry with bi polar disorder.  But you have the disorder yourself, so naturally in your eyes its very visible, and naturally you think because of your disorder that everyone can see it, like its almost a sign painted on you.  But I bet you quite a lot of the people you come into contact with may not know you have the disorder at all.  Why because you have learned to manage your disorder to the point that the genral public would not so easily be able to tell.  When you have your more stormy times, you arent as public or visible as to not let people see, so most times we dont see the worst of your symptoms unless we have already lived with you on a daily basis and even then if your symptoms are not bad we and if the sufferer either doesnt know they are bi polar or doesnt believe they have it we still may not be able to tell.  So she may not have known at all what was really wrong with her husband when they got married or and more likely she may not have seen any symptoms at all.  So her level of insight really did not factor in.

You have to put yourself in her shoes or in anyone's shoes who doesnt have the disorder, we cant always tell not because we dont want to know or refuse to see, but quite often because people like you have gotten so good at masking it when dealing with us.  Its really that simple.

Well Tabby it looks as if I annoyed you with my earlier reply and it seems from your reply that I must not have been clear with a few of my points and that I must have given you the wrong idea of what I meant to a certain degree. I appologize for that and hopefully I can describe what I mean clearer.

First let me state that I never said or implied that all people who suffer from bi polar disorder are abusive some are not.  My statement was that all abuse even if it starts out as verbal will eventually lead to physical abuse if not dealt with. 

Also when it comes to the degenerative disorders that can mimic some of the symptoms of bi polar, I did not mean to imply that the non ill spouse should stay with a person suffering from one of those disorders if they are getting abused.  My point was, in regards to the neuro disorders that are also very physically debilitating, it might be less likely that the sufferer would be able to physically abuse their spouse.  This being simple logic because if they arent physcally able to hit someone or have independant movement enough to physically hurt someone then physical abuse will not be as likely to occur.  That doesnt mean that there wont be emotional or verbal abuse.  But also you have to remember with those other neuro degenerative disorders quite often the physical and mental deterioration is so severe that eventually the sufferer loses the ability to not only move on their own accord but also the ability to communicate in any coherent method or eventaully in any manner at all. 

So staying with someone who has one of those kind of disorders, even though the early symptoms can be very much like bi polar, eventaully the sympomts go far beyond that to the point where hospital care is mandatory or atleast some kind of specific in home medical care like a live in or periodically visiting care nurse is required.  With that being the case it doesnt fall so much on the non ill spouse to deal with the sufferer of those disorders especially when their behavior gets out of hand since they are either commited to a facility already or because there is a medical representative there who can manage the sufferer during the worst times.  Bi polar disorder doesnt degenerate the sufferer to that extreme point.  In the most severe cases the bi polar sufferer's mental state can deteriorate to such an extent that working or some of the more mundane aspects of everyday life as those non ill people out there take for granted can become next to impossible for the sufferer, but their physical state will never degenerate to such a degree nor will there mental state ever degenerate to the extreme that someone with ms or parkinsons or lou gehrigs would.

Also with bi polar, the symptoms can be managed some days better than others because even the most proactive sufferer will still have days where they arent in control.  However the bi polar sufferer still has potentially way more control over their behavior than someone with one of the other disorders I mentioned.  So in essence the question still remains the same, and you put it better than I could.  That being if everything has been done and no other recourse is available then leaving can be and is an option. 

No when it comes to children with bi polar, as I said it is much easier for an imvolved parent to kick start their child's treatment.  The first reason for this is the childs age.  Its much easier to alter or inhibit a childs negative behavior than it is an adults.  With children who dont have the disorder parents already have to set boundaries and distinguish what is correct and acceptable behavior in regards to the child and what is not acceptable behavior.  The child not being old enough to make that determination on their own learn from positive and negative consequences so as they grow older and become adults they understand the concept of not only right and wrong but of consequnces for their actions.  With someone who is bi polar the whole concept of consequences plays a big role in their treatment because its through the negative consequences that they learn that their behavior is impaired as well as their judgement.  So in their treatment they apply this in order to attempt to manage and/or curb their behavior.  To teach that to an adult who has bi polar is much more difficult because their behavior patterns and their ideas of right and wrong are much more set and ingrained, so its a much harder road to go for them to learn all of that and then begin to modify or try to start curbing or trying to control their negative behavior.  With a child who is bi polar its somewhat different because their ideas of right and wrong and their sense of consequences are not yet fully formed anyway.  Also as I said its easier to get a child into treatment than it is an adult.  Because lets face it in the initial stages of the process a bi polar sufferer goes through when they first get diagnosed they are generally in denial still and not so keen or easily motivated to get that diagnosis and begin their treatment and there are no laws in place that can force them as long as they arent a clear danger to anyone and their is no official authority in their life that can motivate them to start their treatment, whereas the child with the disorder is under the custody and care of their parents and can be more easily motivated to begin treatment.

Now its just as difficult to deal with a child with bi polar who has a tendency to be abusive than it is an adult, however once a child becomes physically abusive it is easier to get that child into a facility in order to prevent that child from physically harming someone.  When an adult has become physically abusive there isnt as many options to choose from in order to deal with them and getting them into a facility for treatment is going to be much tougher than it would be to get a child into such a place.  Also adults ,even those with bi polar disorder, are still old enough to be responsible for their actions and even with their disorder are still better able to understand right from wrong in terms of their behavior than a child.  A child with the disorder depending on their age isnt legally or even psychologically able to make those determinations as well as an adult even if the adult has the disorder.

Now because the child is a child it isnt as morally acceptable to just wash your hands of them and their disorder because a child being a minor is not legally able to care for themselves or live their own life either in the eyes of the law or from an emotional stand point.  That doesnt stop children from running away and attemtping to do so but for the parent to abandon the child would be unacceptable both morally and in the eyes of the law.  In regards to woman like the orignal poster or a man leaving their spouse who has bi polar, it isnt abandonment because both parties are adults and legally able to live on their own.  All of this is why its not the same situation in regards to leaving a bi polar adult spouse as opposed to abandoning a child with the disorder. 

Also you have to remember that bi polar disorder is not as common in children as it is in adults.  In fact typicall the disorder begins to manifest in a persons late teens to early twenties.

I think I was able to explain my mindset a little better this time tabby.  Sorry for giving you the wrong idea abit about my points though.  Sometimes my mind works quicker than I can type and accuratly relaying my thoughts and points of view can be tough when my typing fingers cant keep up with my mind.

Now I am not going to try and argue morals because I am not a morally perfect person.  But leaving an adult who has the disorder because they have become abusive is acceptable because of the reasons I have stated.  Its not acceptable to leave a child who has the disorder, for all of the reasons I have stated.  On the surface the agruments might seem the same but they arent and they arent for even more reasons than I have stated here. 

But the bottom line is, and I agree with you on this, if the bi polar sufferer is not being abusive then there is no reason to leave.  If my ex had not been abusive and had not been unfaithful I would not have left her and divorced her.  But in my case she was abusive, and after all of the effort I put into trying to hold our marriage together, she was not willing to do any work at all.  She was not willing to come out of her denial and get the help she needed.  Instead she chose to blame others like me for her behavior and moods and for her tendency to abuse.  The original poster's husband sounds like he has been treating her the same way my wife treated me, so that being the case then my advice stands.  Leaving looks like th best option to me. 

Thanks for helping me to realize how unclear my earlier post was tabby, sorry for the confusion.