John, I really agree with what you say about not waiting until you're "better" to work with relationships, and I also agree with Donna about a lot of family not wanting to listen. You do have to pick and choose with whom to be honest and it's probably not going to be a very large number.
As you mentioned, I think we do have to take the opportunities when they come, at times we're feeling somewhat better, to make the effort to keep connected with the people in our lives. My husband and I have been in couples therapy for a long time and I really believe it's what has kept us together all these years because I wasn't able to talk to him about how I felt and, in fact, blamed him for a lot of my misery. Therapy, however, made me see that he really wasn't the problem - oh, he did do things that didn't help one bit, but we've each been able to take responsibility for the hurt we've caused each other and to work harder on our relationship.
For me, anyway, my own therapy is what's taught me about relationships. I'm lucky to have a very good therapist and while, yes, it's a "therapeutic" relationship, it IS one, nonetheless, and it's one way I've been able to experience nonjudgmental acceptance and to feel like somebody gives a rip, even if I do or say something stupid. I know I put her through many tests, expecting her to fail, but she didn't. Not to say that she's never made a mistake or never made me angry (a real hard one to talk about!), but the point is, it DOES get talked about and I've realized that I'm not wrong about everything or a hopeless case and that I don't have to take abuse from other people and have a right to my opinion, even if it's different from everyone else's.
Thanks for writing about this important topic because I do think a lot of people think they can't do anything to help their relationships unless they're not depressed and that's not true. It's harder, certainly, but not impossible if you have the will. I try to keep connected with the people who accept me and I work at accepting them, as well. And these aren't the people with whom I grew up. They're people I would have chosen to have as family, if I could have.
Hi, Judy -
That's so encouraging to hear how you worked so hard to get through the hardest times, especially with your husband. When my wife and I did couples therapy the first time, I was still in a blaming and escapist mode and wasn't forthcoming enough. The second time, though, there were too many crises going on for me to hold back, and we did make a big breakthrough.
It's also helpful to see from your experience how important it is to stay with the work on sustaining trust and openness in a solid relationship. Unfortunately, it's rare that a partner is williing to grow and learn along with you. Pretty ideal, I would say!
Thank you for bringing all this out.
John
This exactly what I'm struggling with right now. My adult son, his wife, and my husband have been hearing me describe my depression, its causes, and its effects for years and they're sick of hearing about it. They see it as an excuse.
Now my son is at a great distance, emotionally, but closer geographically. He's carving out opportunities for me and my husband to be grandparents, but I sense that he's not up for the deep conversation. I know from what my husband said about a deep conversation he and my son had (would be a lot better if he had told me a lot less) where my son expressed a lot of hurt from the past and frustration about the present. That was when my outlook made a big problem. I told my husband that I didn't think my son and his wife wanted anything to do with us because he just told me all the reasons why he couldn't spend time with us when we were on a visit to Chicago (my son only moved closer recently). He was angry and hurt when my son called him to arrange a time to meet, and they talked about the whole issue. I was the bad guy for reacting to the conversation with my son about the visit and my telling my husband how I felt. I was hearing the list of reasons why they were busy during the visit and not hearing when it was possible for my husband to go there. (I was in a conference where I was speaking.) So now communication is going between my son and my husband and I'm kept at a distance except for these controlled events.
This is complicated hugely by the revelation that my daughter-in-law has been suffering from depression, which might explain her habit of constantly mentioning things she doesn't like that I happen to do, such as the way I clutter my house. The shoe's on the other foot and I see how hard it is to attribute a painful attitude to depression and not her true feelings about me. Even if her true feelings are that I'm just a "mother-in-law" she might not snipe at me if she weren't depressed -- and pregnant.
I feel my son has enough on his hands trying to keep her from alienating her mother after she already cut off her relationship with her father, while getting up to speed in a new job.
My depression is giving me crying spells and then manic and anxious urges to DO SOMETHING, even when the wise thing is probably to ride it out for a year and see if he comes to me. I think it would be wise to let events heal the relationship, show I can engage and bond with his little daughter, and not try to do it with words. It's so hard.
When I do have the conversation, I think I'll ask him to do it with the help of a family therapist, so I don't run off as usual talking about my emotional history when I should be listening to his feelings.
John, it helps to hear that someone else is struggling with the current stress and aftermath of the past in our closest relationship. My sister says that some people just can't understand and it's better not to keep trying to make them. That has actually helped by relieving my feeling that if I could just get them to understand, things would be better. If they can't, it's just frustrating and pointless to keep trying to explain. It's isolating, so I appreciate the chance to ramble on here about it.
I read in one of Rick Warren's book a phrase that rings so true, that maturity is when you can live with the tension that is created between what is real and what is ideal. It is hard when you are depressed to live with that tension. (Heck, it is hard to live with it under ANY circumstance!) And it is hard as a mother, especially, when you know the relationship with your son is not ideal. You want the ideal, and he is looking at the perceived "real" of hurts and disappointments as he sees them. You both want the "ideal" that you have in mind, but those ideals might just be different. And you both have to agree to live with that and still live with the real side of the story, again -- as you each see it. Does that make sense?
You have a wonderful idea about seeing a therapist together (you and your son) to hash this out. And it really, really needs to be done. You will both benefit. And maybe you can take one step toward that "ideal" you each have in mind without ignoring your feelings. Better to 'fess up with love toward each other and ask forgiveness and let the healing begin. I believe it can happen. I have seen it happen in my own life.
I so agree with Donna that your idea of meeting with a family therapist is important - essential. It's a big thing to admit that it's too hard to handle on your own - but it's not just your tendency to "fly away." The other members of your family are also having a hard time. This sounds like the right moment for a therapist, though the separation geographically makes it hard. Everything has gotten very complicated about several issues, and I think each of you could get a lot out of sorting through it with a family therapist. There's usually a focus in a family on one person as the central problem, but it's clear each one has so much to work out.
And I can you all love each other. Its so hard to get back to that basic feeling and express it because of all the tension and blame.
Thank you so much for "rambling" - you've taken a chance on doing this since you can never tell what sort of reaction you might get.
My prayers for you -- John
Thanks for your encouragement, Donna. I think you're right about the ideal vs real. That's a thought I should really spend some time with before making an approach. I may be doing an "all or nothing" thing where I bounce between thinking I'll blow it all up or make it all better. Of course, we're human, so neither is likely to be the case.
Depression certainly has it's way of reaching furher than the affected, it affects all of those close to them.
I love this post and how you share your obvious dedication to keepig relationships intact despite the toll depression takes.
I have seen this working both ways as I have experienced recurring depression and I have witnessed how debiliating it is to relationships when roles are reversed as well. Speaking from the heart with honesty and listening from the heart with an open mind has to be key to keeping a relationship filled with life and vitality. I believe the relationship simply will not survive (even if people stay in the relationship) and it certainly cannot thrive if these components are not there.
My most successful relationships for me are the ones in which I can share honestly from my heart and I can accept feedback without perceiving judgment but with an understanding of this "two-way street". I, too, want to hear from the other person's heart. Sadly, it can be quite difficult to achieve this and relationships are so often strained, damaged and even ruined.
In my experience, I do my best to listen without responding too quickly. I try to listen with a very open mind and to try putting myself in their "shoes". I work hard to see how my experience and behaviors are affecting others, because it certainly does.
I look forward to reading on and learning with others how this can best be achieved while dealing with depression.
I believe my boyfriend is depressed and has been for a number of weeks. He says he will go and see a doctor but hasn't. He says he has no feelings towards anything or anyone, me included. When i see him we talk openly about our feelings. But then we agree to see each other again and he says he's having a bad day and it doesn't happen. He then says he doesn't know when he can see me but says he does want to. He seems to think he can help himself get through this. I don't think he can.
I have numerous things i don't know how to deal with or cope with. The first is him not seeing a doctor, any ideas?
The second is how do i behave? Do i make him see me? Do i back off for a period? I have no idea what to do for the best and he says he doesn't know either so can't help me. He does get in touch regularly even though he says he may not and doesn't want to see me. Is this a good sign?
Have people got through this? I can't see a way back. I love him so much i don't want to be without him.
I'm dealing with a very similar situation to yours, except we are going on month 3 of depression and avoidance right now. What has happened in your situation since you last wrote?
For me, it started off exactly how you describe..talking openly when around each other, plans to see each other and then him backing off or not contacting me. He would keep in touch with me via occasional text messages. Then, that stopped. When we last spoke, he wouldn't break up with me, but at the same time said he feels like he's "doing me a favor" by pushing me away. He admits to sticking his head in the sand about difficult issues and said he had reached a point that he describes as being numb to everyone. He couldn't answer my questions as to what he needs from me, why he pushes me away, etc. He knows he needs help, but is reluctant to get it. I've provided referrals for him, but I realize he is the one that has to take that step. I just don't know how much more I should do from my end. How long do I let the silence continue? Is it going to harm or help our relationship if I don't keep reaching out and let him make the next step towards me and getting help? I've gone a month now without contacting him or hearing anything from him. I know he is still able to work and is alive. When we last spoke told him I love him, I will always be here for him, that he doesn't need to protect me and I will accept him for who he is whether it's depressed, angry or otherwise. I told him it hurts much more when he shuts me out. However, he still does it. Prior to this we were able to communicate exceptionally well and talk about difficult issues and feelings. He has had a tremendous amount of stress, both expected and unexpected. We got through some of it together, we never argued, but then he just sort of snapped and went quiet. He was always considerate of my feelings before and we had mutual respect for each other. That makes the current situation even more difficult to handle. I love him and want to support him, but don't know what he needs since he can't tell me. I don't want to assume and place my beliefs on him. I don't want to stop communicating with him if he needs that one way communication and love, even if he can't reciprocate right now. I also don't want to keep trying to communicate with him if it's making it harder for him, but at the same time I need to respect myself as well. I don't want to stop all communication and have the relationship just fade into nothing. I'M SO FRUSTRATED!!
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I am familiar with the acting bit -- letting my "superior sadness," as I like to call it, reign supreme. As if sadness or depression were some sort of piousness. Maybe depression feels something like contrition? Bowing under the weight of all the bad I've done. But I always thought if others sensed this weight, they would be able to help me. Or at least be sympathetic. They were worried at times, but then even that faded away. They grew jaded. Oh yeah, that again. And I really did feel very depressed, but it got out of hand. And the contrition turned into something more dangerous than fearing hell -- it became a living hell. Like I could never live up to what was expected of me so I might as well die. I had to back away from that and get some perspective concerning faith, hope, and love. In a general way. Faith that things would get better with time and effort. Hope was the effort. Then love. Love is not what I thought it was. It is not just receiving affection and intimacy, it is learning how to give of myself without giving up myself. Knowing myself, maybe. And even settling for something less than perfect.
Other than that, I have a question regarding telling others how you really feel and respecting how your depression has affected them: what if they have no desire to listen. Because of denial, or selfishness, or misunderstanding, or moral judgment, or whatever. It would have helped me a lot if someone would have listened. For some reason, I just couldn't talk to my therapist even though I felt she probably had a lot to offer. I saw her every week for about 5 yrs and never felt like talking. So maybe she would have listened if I had talked. But I wanted family to listen and they were not remotely interested. They had their own lives. And, as it turned out, their own depression to deal with.
Hi, Donna -
So true, everyone with depression has to deal with people who won't listen, or worse. That's one of the things I want to go into in the next post about this. I have to think carefully about each person before I can do it. Usually, I know from being with friends and relatives who to trust and who to forget about. But there are many in between, and talking to them is risky. It took me years to really do it, and I don’t want to make it sound easy.
I'm wondering why you spent 5 years with a therapist you didn't feel like talking to really honestly. Is it that you didn't trust her because she wasn't very sensitive, or you didn't want to risk opening up, or you were just too depressed to make the effort? I've felt all of those things and held back far too often. I suppose that's why it was so incredible when the risk paid off. It sounds like your family was initially responsive before getting tired of hearing about it?
As I mentioned in this post and an earlier one about talking to my wife, the hardest - almost impossible - step was to get through my internal barrier to saying anything at all about what I felt in the moment I was feeling it. Talking about what I had been through was a lot easier, but even that came slowly. Opening up is tough and tougher. It’s a personal call and will vary for everyone.
John
As far as the 5 yrs of being unresponsive w/therapist is concerned -- I was highly dissociative and could not remember her questions long enough to answer them...and could not remember what I was saying in the middle of an answer. I was constantly stopping and asking her what in the heck we were talking about. But I was not this way with my family necessarily, or not very often. It was mainly with the therapist. I must have had something REALLY THREATENING in the back of my mind (repressed? suppressed?) that I couldn't force myself to face or even think about. Whatever it is is still there. Every time I try to start therapy the severe dissociation starts again. (deja vu all over again -- lol)
I am feeling really great now and kind of hate to threaten my mood with therapy. I mean, if there are really bad memories back there somewhere, is it safe to just leave them alone or would I benefit from pursuing the matter with a therapist?
P.S. Your answer will really hugely be appreciated. This ongoing question about dissociation has been bothering me all these years. As in why does it happen and can anything be done about it and it is worth it.
Hi, Donna -
If you're feeling great, I'd stay with that and not worry about therapy just now. Therapy becomes necessary for me when some part of my life feels like it's breaking - or I can't do something I really want to do. Nobody's obligated to go to therapy - but I do have to be careful that I'm not avoiding it because I'm afraid of opening up.
You talk about dissociation, and I've never thought that applied to me, but at Storied Mind I write often about "disappearing" - feeling so detached from wherever I am or whoever I'm talking to that I'm not really there. I guess that's dissociative, and when I can't focus on something in therapy I'm dissociating from my past. I don't own it, don't want to think about it as causing a problem I'm having - or maybe I'm just completely denying that anything's wrong.
So it varies. If I'm feeling great - why even think about therapy? Let's just live for a change instead of ruminating about stuff that isn't causing a problem. I could also be in denial - as happened when my wife forced me to wake up and get help. Or I might know damn well that I'm avoiding therapy because I'm afraid of something I can't face.
Am I being responsive here - or wandering away because I can't concentrate on what you asked. (What was I talking about anyway? - lol)
John
You're right -- live all you can while you have the chance. Why pay someone to sit and listen to you talk about something you'd just as soon not dredge up. (But I do admit it has my curiousity piqued.)