hi everybody
I cant change the fact that in the past I didnt see that I was depressed
Now from hindsight I can see how really depressed I was
I was a loner in school and really got nailed because i never combed my hair
My clothes didnt match
Right now I dont have a girlfriend
so I feel out of place
I have never interacted very well
Jon
Hello Jon
I don't think this is so unusual that you didn't know you were depressed. Both men and women sometimes have a hard time knowing what it is they are feeling and if it is a problem or not.
I think you are very insightful and...you have a good grasp of your feelings now.
Thank you so much for participating in our discussion. How are you doing today?
Hi MM and all,
In the last appeal for comments above you ask how can we change men not coming in for help? My immediate idea is to make getting checkups an expected routine, just like prostate examines. The military is getting on board by requiring all returning soldiers from combat to get a psychological test right along with post action physical exam.
Work places could make mandatory checkups part of being employed, and standard procedure for promotions. Part of a company health insurance coverage could include mandatory psychological testing. Unemployed men could be required to have a minimal psychological profile before receiving benifits. Welfare recipiants could be given the same requirement. Schools could require profiles for entry and/or graduation. The expectation could be shaped that all people need regular psycholgical exams just like teeth, breast, heart, and weight monitoring.
In this day of monitoring almost everything with computers, tests could be kept as other medical records in the privacy of the examiners, only to be viewed if or when security issues are breached.
Ric
While I'm not in favor of all our records containing our psychological profile, I do agree that info needs to be out there where it is available. And it should start in grade school health class on up at least through high school health. (If schools are even still teaching health -- it may have gone the way of music and art.) School counselors should make an effort to be available for real counseling, not just schedule adjusting and so forth. The main job of my high school counselor was to make sure everyone had the credits they needed to graduate, and she taught health class. But health was more about sexual health than anything else and certainly there was no mention of mental health.
Hi Ricovering and Donna
This is a fascinating topic you raise and...I think needs to be explored more fully. This could be a debate for future post...would love to get our experts back to hear what they have to say as well as our whole community.
I am not sure if mandatory psychological testing is the answer...I could see this backfiring somehow...if the information were used to discriminate instead of help. But in some cases...maybe a screening process is essential. Education is also extremely important. I hear you Donna...we had health class but...there was nothing about mental health. I wonder if this is changing?
Great ideas...great topic. Thanks Ricovering for attempting to answer my question.
I agree with the opinions expressed here. There's also something that nobody mentioned (unless I missed it) and that is the cultural aspect - the roles that men and women have in our society. Certainly, gender equality has come a long way over the years, but I would wager that there might actually be more female depression because of things like the unequal power balance between men and women, both at home and in the workplace. Women are still seen as the nurturers and caretakers, often to the point of depleting our own resources, and then we get into resentment over being stuck in this role or letting ourselves get stuck in this role to the point where we start feeling invisible and worthless. Sexism has not completely disappeared, stereotypes still exist. I'm not saying that all women feel less powerful than men or that there aren't any nurturing men around, but the fact remains that women still do most of the child care and housework - on top of working outside the home full-time.
Then there's the issue of the role of trauma in depression. Women experience more domestic abuse and sexual abuse, generally speaking, and if that has happened to you, it wouldn't be surprising if you became depressed, especially if it wasn't dealt with correctly.
This kind of reminds me of what the medical world has done with studying heart disease - we're just finally getting around in recent years to figuring out that many women experience heart attacks differently than men do and that's because initial studies did not include women. The same thing could be said of many drug trials.
It's a complex topic, for sure.
Very well said, Judy!
Although the idea of "gender equality" has come a long way, the main roles of male/female will always be gender-specific to some small(er) degree. For example, women are indeed naturally better nurturers; thereby managing to better nurture themselves along the way. We men tend more to attempt to 'fix' what's perceived as "wrong", to analyze it and understand it. Do women suffer Deprssion as severely as a man? Of course they do, often more severely. BOTH genders carry a heavy load of exectations, whether real or perceived, no matter how enlightened a society believes they have become.
I also believe that the weight & distribution of Depression depends on the society itself; societies with a strong religious base VS those without, male dominance VS a more gender-equal playing field, stronger family units VS more casual, the list goes on.
Carl
Hi Judy
These are really excellent points and I am so glad you have raised them. We kinda skewed towards mainly talking about male depression but there are very valid reasons why female depression may be a bit different.
Right...women do tend to be the nurturers althought this is somewhat changing. But yes a lot of caretaking duties are placed upon women...especially the sandwich generation where you are not only taking care of children but also elderly parents and sometimes grandchildren too.
Hormones also play a big part in all this. Pregnancy and menopause can create emotional havoc.
There are numerous factors involved in gender differences. We are biological beings and our female or male biology has to be taken into account.
Thank you thank you for your on target response. This is exactly what I had hoped for in creating such a post...this reciprocal sharing of thoughts and opinions and also...gaining some ideas of what we can do to help both genders cope with their depression.
Great stuff...
Hi Carl
I was wondering if any of our male readers might take offense to the descriptors used in this post. But it is almost refreshing that there is an acceptance that yes...men and women have these different traits. I do think that we do have to be careful not to paint a stereotypical portrait, however. There are certainly some men who are more nurturing than some women. There are some women who like to fix problems more than men.
Your point about overall society...and how that impacts depression is an extremely interesting topic to maybe discuss at a later time. I often wonder how other cultures deal with depression...let's say the Amish community or...different counties.
Thanks so much for all your insights. Great ideas...and especially for future discussions.
i would agree that the difference is that men don't talk about their experience of depression as much as women. i've heard it said that men think of their feelings like women feel about their breasts - they all have them, and they are happy to share them, but they have to truly trust the person they are sharing them with. i think that men see depression as a weakness, and men are traditionally "trained" to cover and hide their weakness. as a result, men probably have less understanding of depression - they probably do less reading about it and certainly less talking about it, and probably seek help less frequently. because they don't have as deep an understading of it, they might think they can tough it out ("shake it off, son," as many of us have heard from our fathers and coaches).
but i also beleive this is changing. men's groups are providing men the forums to bring their depression out into the open and share their experiences. when men admit to each other that they suffer from depression, it is often a "oh, you too?" kind of moment, when they realize how many of their peers are in the same boat. i also think younger men, simply because of the changing times, are more likely to see depression as less of a stigma. younger men,who might see their fathers dealing with depression, have more opportunity to be open and out front about it. there is hope for us.
Hey Zenhead!
Very good to see you here. I hope you keep coming back
These are great observations you have made. Do you feel it is more...biological or wiring that causes men not to talk so much about their feelings...or is it a learned societal thing?
For you personally...how does it feel to discuss...being depressed? Do you find that you can talk about it more readily with a woman or is it possible to discuss this with other males? I am very curious about what men say to each other about their feelings. I have seen it so seldom.
Thank you so much for stopping by to participate in our discussion. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
i think it is probably a little of both wiring and learned - i think males evolved over the centuries to never show weakness, when they were relied on a warriors, protectors and hunters, and that has been reinforced in more modern times - playing sports with injuries, "playing hurt," even staying with marriages/relationships that hurt, all with the perception that to show weakness of any kind is not manly.
but i have found through men's groups that it is very powerful to share all of this, and very healing. i find men are often surprised to find tey are not alone in these feelings.
This is a very useful profile MerelyMe. Depression in men is under-reported - of that I'm sure. In some ways this taps into a lot of other issues about why men don't report a whole variety of issues that cause discomfort and embarrassment. I think there are a range of reasons why men under-acknowledge, identify, or report depression, some of which people have identified.
Another perspective is the fact that a visit to the family doctor is often viewed as a 'female' activity. This aspect has been picked up by other men's health experts who point out that the layout, personnel, posters etc found in clinics or other surgeries tend to emphasise women and women's health. In and of itself I doubt this is enough to drive men away but it's not exactly man friendly and welcoming either. Many men have a certain passivity when it comes to reporting their own health yet will open up if approached. This, to me, suggests different approaches to men's health are required.
Thanks for raising this important issue and providing such a rich source of supporting comments and perspectives.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry
You have made a very insightful observation here about doctor's offices. So true! Even the magazines are mostly all for women. Make doctor's offices more man friendly...I like it.
In the coming weeks and months I am going to be doing more of these expert panel discussions...would love to have your input.
Thank you for your comment...it is much appreciated!
I can't resist telling this little tidbit....years ago, my son was seeing a therapist who "borrowed" an office from a colleague in a clinic to see him. I was sitting in the waiting room and noticed a sign on the front desk that said, basically, "No Whining." I joked about it with my son's therapist (I figured it might not be helping business any) and he had it removed. There are so many things we don't think about as we focus in on our own little worlds so it's good when people speak up and bring it to our attention.
Just wanted to add my own comment to thank the folks who gave their help in creating this article...Thanks Dr. Deb, ShrinkRapRoy, Eileen and John!
I plan on doing more of these types of articles and I will be looking for input from experts and mental health writers....just shoot me an email here on the site and maybe I can include you in my next expert panel post.
Thanks guys!
It's unlikely any two people, including "identical" twins, are. We're all products of our genetics/environment. Our perceptions are distorted by our genetic pre-dispositions and experiences; many of which have been mentioned. No two people will perceive or experience anything, including depression, in, exactly, the same manner. The more any two people have in common, though, the greater the likelihood their perceptions or experiences of anything, including depression, are to be similar. In general, a woman is more likely to have more in common with other women than men and vice versa. It follows that a woman's depression is more likely to be similar to that of other women than that of men and, again, vice versa. Yes, there's a difference between male and female depression.
@Judy The PC term, for "whining", is "narrative therapy". It can have a cathartic effect, enable a person to gain insights and is, I think, more effective than other "talk therapies".
@Ricovring I'm having difficulty thinking of how to put this, nicely. Enforced medical testing is just shy of having a computer chip implanted and some of us aren't quite as willing to give up what little freedom and few rights we have left. So far as the confidentiality of the medical records, you mentioned, is concerned, I'd suggest you do a search for "wikileaks".
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I do think men are more apt to attempt to solve the problem of depression in external ways. Fix this, fix that, fix relationships, fix anger. They sometimes hestitate to acknowledge the emotion behind what needs to be fixed, but a woman can be quick to respond with emotion. A man wants a "tool" with which to manage his depression and looks at his own emotional tool belt, and doesn't know which tools to use or how to use them (or if he even has any.) He may not recognize depression as such and/or may choose to call it something else, like anger, jealousy, boredom. Of course, this is solely from my perspective as a woman. I think women are quicker to say, "Oh yes, I AM depressed and don't know how to deal with it." But my mom and dad both thought that depression was something shameful, not to be talked about. Taboo. My dad thought depression was "psychosomatic" and so he dismissed the obvious truth that he was deeply depressed much of his life and wouldn't even take medications that were prescribed to help. But maybe there are more similarities than differences in male vs female depression. If I talk with my male friend about his depression, it sounds just like my depression. He just masks it with a mis-applied sense of humor.
Hello Donna
I think you may be accurate in your assessment. I think many men do like to fix problems and may become irritated if a problem cannot be solved readily. Yet there are many women who are like this too...I am actually one of them. I like to fix things and be done with them. But depression...unfortunately is not something you necessarily solve or fix...it is a slow healing process...and a coming to terms with your challenges.
It is great that we can have these open and candid discussions. I am looking forward to hearing what our male members have to say about this topic. One hope I have is that we have not stereotyped either gender in this process. Everyone is unique. And also in some ways as you say...men and women experience many of the same symptoms of depression. We may be more alike than different.