I have been Type 2 since 1997 and take 1000 mg metformin BID. A1c runs between 5.5 and 5.7 for past 3 years. I have 3 kinds of anemia that require more current medical attention than diabetes and have been instructed by my hematologist to take 325 mg ferrous gluconate and 1000 mg vitamin c daily. That barely keeps the iron levels high enough, and periodically I receive iron dextran infusions. I rely on the nutritional information at Oregon State University's Linus Pauling Institute web site for honest reporting, and dropped the selenium I was taking. I cannot find any benefits to taking Vitamin E, and though I read about the benefits of omega 3 fatty acids, I don't like "burping" fish the rest of the day. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/.
Dear Pauline,
I've heard about the burping issue with fish oil for years. But never experienced it myself. For years I took Carlson's Fish Oil, which I kept refrigerated. Maybe that helped. Now I take Krill Oil, which I wrote about here not too long ago. I also eat a lot of fatty fish like sardines and salmon. You might try one of these approaches.
Best regards,
David
I read someting about this recently and decided to stop taking mega Vit C doses. But the article I read said it was taking the Vit C after exercising that negated the benefit of exercise. That left me with the impression that taking Vit C either hours before or after exercise would not effect glucose. Comments anyone?
I think the study regarding Vitimin C and E should not be interpreted as ruling out the potential benefits of reasonable supplementation, unless of course you eat the perfect diet. It sounds like some of your readers are taking an all or nothing position based on this limited study which raises the question of the value of high amounts of two specific vitimins in connection with exercise.
hi david, i have given up all supplements except chia seeds and l-arginine and i feel so much better. i have more energy, my glucose numbers are improved, i fel clear headed and the depression seems to be lifting. i am very careful to get my 30 minutes of aerobics every day and am eating more vegetables. i would love to hear from anyone else who has followed a similar course. thanks.
Hello David,
In principle to some degree, I agree with you that many supplements are a waste of time and money. The study you reported in this article just did not sit right with me, but my level of education on the subject kept me from responding until I read another article on the same study. It is written by Frank Mangano. Here it is copy/pasted with the website address included at the end:
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<!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]-->German Study Pooh-Poohs Antioxidant Benefits
For years, I and others in the natural health world have written about the array of benefits antioxidants provide the body. How antioxidants neutralize free radicals, how they diminish the risk of an assortment of diseases and how they slow the aging process.
These positive benefits haven’t been hid by the media, but they’re rarely afforded the headline status they deserve. This is mostly because it’s not perceived as news – people just seem to take the benefits of antioxidants for granted whenever a new study comes out on just how effective they are in contributing to overall well-being.
But if a study comes out slamming antioxidants as phony and destructive to health? Now that’s a story. It’s the classic journalism credo of “’Dog bites man’ isn’t news, but ‘Man Bites Dog’ is.”
Well ladies and gentlemen, that’s just what we have today, as a study’s been released that actually pooh-poohs the benefits of antioxidants. The researchers say that antioxidants actually “block the positive benefits of exercise on metabolism.”
Now that’s chutzpah!
German researchers came to this conclusion after recruiting approximately 40 men to participate in a four-week study that tested their athletic ability (85 minutes of cardio). The recruits were both trained and untrained as far as overall fitness goes, and approximately half were assigned to take vitamin C and E supplements following exercise. The other half took a placebo.
At the end of the study, the researchers came to some surprising – and in my and others’ opinions, flawed – conclusions. The group that took the placebo showed some improvements in their metabolism, in that their bodies were better able to control and regulate blood sugar (one of the many benefits reaped from regular exercise). But this wasn’t the case for those who took the vitamin E and C supplements. They showed no improvements in insulin resistance.
The researchers chalk it up to antioxidants’ blocking reactive oxygen, and because of this, antioxidants might, get this, increase the risk of type II diabetes!
Again, that’s chutzpah!
The sensationally specious study is published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
I could go into great depth as to why this study should be taken with a grain of salt, and it starts with the fact that it was so small and only involved men. But thankfully, there’s been a lot of reaction within the scientific community that epitomize my line of thinking in a more reasonably argued way, so I’ll let one of them speak on my behalf.
One of whom is Dr. Alexander Schauss. Speaking to NutraIngredients.com, Dr. Schauss of the AIBMR Life Sciences Center, an organization dedicated to natural products research, said that the study is flawed on its face because the German researchers asked trained and untrained athletes to perform the same amount of aerobic activity. Naturally, the lab tests of an untrained person’s body will react differently than those of a trained athlete.
Secondly, much of the German researchers’ data was incomplete. For instance, they collected muscle biopsies from some of the recruits, yet not for others.
Another one of his criticisms hearkens back to my media criticism, in that while the researchers pooh-pooh antioxidants benefit to exercise, they don’t say there’s any negative effects associated with vitamin E and vitamin C. Yet the headlines around the world imply this untruth all day long (e.g. “Do Antioxidants Curb an Exercise Benefit,” “Antioxidants Blunt Exercise Benefit,” “Vitamins Undo Exercise Efforts”).
I’m hoping we’ve all reached the point where we can’t judge a book by its cover. You have to really read a study or article before coming to any conclusions.
This is a classic case of why you shouldn’t always take studies as gospel. Because sometimes, they’re written just to get attention.
And all too often, the media are happy to oblige.
Information found at: http://naturalhealthontheweb.com/mangano-minute/blogs/?p=450
Claire Shouse
Dear Claire,
Thank you for contributing to the debate! We do need to sort out these issues.
The blog that you cited by Frank Mangano is interesting. Since I never heard of him before, I looked him up. He says that he "is a self-educated, independent researcher in the field of alternative health." That means, of course, that he has a vested interest in supplements.
Mr. Mangano's blog relies on statements by someone else I never heard of, Dr. Alexander Schauss. So I looked him up too. Turns out that he is not an M.D.
He is the CEO of a company called AIBMR Life Sciences, which I also never heard of. But they say that "AIBMR Life Sciences offers full-service natural products and nutraceutical consulting." In other words they too have a vested interest in supplements.
So who is this "Dr. Schauss"? His company's website says that instead of an M.D. degree he has a Ph.D. degree. And certainly people with Ph.D.'s can and sometimes do call themselves "Dr." But what sort of Ph.D. degree does "Dr. Schauss" have?
His bio at http://www.vrp.com/drschauss.aspx says that, "He earned his...doctoral degree...at...California Coast University in Santa Ana." Since I grew up in Southern California, I thought that was interesting, because I never heard of California Coast University either (by now I'm sure that a lot of people will think that I'm quite ignorant, but, hey, nobody can know everything!).
So I looked up California Coast University. Turns out that it is what's known as a diploma mill -- it hands out degrees to people anywhere -- they attend the school by what's technically called "distance learning." There's a little ad right now on their site, http://www.calcoast.edu/, that asks us to "Enroll for only $300 during the month of May."
I'll pass. But what about the objections to the study that the good "Dr." Schauss raised. He made two points:
1. "The German researchers asked trained and untrained athletes to perform the same amount of aerobic activity. Naturally, the lab tests of an untrained person’s body will react differently than those of a trained athlete." If I've ever read a red herring, this is it. As Wikipedia says, a red herring is an argument, given in reply, that does not address the original issue. Critically, a red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument."
Can you just imagine what "Dr." Schauss would write if the German researchers asked only trained athletes to perform exercise? He would say, "What about untrained people?" Or if they just asked untrained people, "What about those who are well trained?"
2. "Secondly, much of the German researchers’ data was incomplete," he claims. "For instance, they collected muscle biopsies from some of the recruits, yet not for others." Let's look. It's easy because the full-text of the article by the German researchers is online and I cited it in my review. It's at http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/05/11/0903485106.full.pdf and also links "Supporting Information" at http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2009/05/11/0903485106.DCSupplemental/0903485106SI.pdf
That was easy. But finding where they collected muscle biopsies for some of the study participants wasn't. But when I searched the article for the word "biopsy" I discovered where "Dr." Schauss found what sounded like an unscientific approach.
Here's what the article in fact says: "Skeletal muscle biopsies were obtained under local anesthesia from the
right vastus lateralis muscle and immediately snap-frozen in liquid nitrogen. Biopsies before (‘‘pre’’, Fig. S1) and after intervention (‘‘post’’, Fig. S1) were obtained from all 39 study subjects; biopsies for the ‘‘early’’ time-point (Fig. S1) were obtained from 4 placebo-taking and 5 vitamin-treated individuals, while the remaining 3 individuals refused to undergo this additional biopsy [emphasis added]."
Judge for yourself whether this discredits the study or not. And biopsies were not the primary basis of the researchers' conclusion that moderate doses of vitamins C and E were counterproductive to the benefits of exercise. Blood samples were that basis.
The bottom line is to look at whose ox is gored. In this case it's the people who want to sell you more supplements. You can believe them, if you like. Or you can believe researchers, who in this case included the president of the Joslin Diabetes Center, who reported their findings in peer-reviewed journals like the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. It's only your money and your health at stake.
Best regards,
David
Thank you for your quick response, David!
I see where you are coming from. The one comment I will add though, is that in the 12 to 14 months that I have been receiving emails from Farank Mangano, I have never received any offer for any supplements. He has never sent me to a website to check out a particular supplement. (I ignore the Google ads, so I won't say there are no supplement ads attached to his blogs.) He writes books that offer advice on natural healing techniques. His advice works very well for many people. His books are the only thing he has ever tried to sell to me.
I have been on mailing lists where the doctor gives some good and/or intersting advice, but the purpose of the mailing list is to SELL SUPPLEMENTS (for much more than they are worth, I might add).
Again, thank you for your quick response and for your meticulous diligence in resarch.
Claire
Hi Mr. Mendosa--
I have no stake in this discussion, except that I am a supplement user. I just wanted to mention that I do not think that California Coast University is a "diploma mill" as you indicate, because it seems to be nationally accredited educational institution. That said, I do not know much else about the school. But...I just wanted to point this out.
I think that the "takeaway" from this discussion regarding antioxidants is that they are, in effect, a double-edged sword. Yes, they have potential benefits to mop up oxidized free radicals in the body. On the other side, they can negatively affect other physical/biochemical mechanisms. I think that anyone who takes supplements should not do so thinking that it is a "magic pill" that only generates positive benefits.
One other thought: It seems that the peer-reviewed medical journals, like the one that published this study, are always all too willing to demonize the supplement industry, simply because it is an industry that the medical industry cannot influence. That seems to be an underlying motivation of so many of these studies. For example: I have experienced great health benefits from taking probiotics and being concerned about my intestinal flora. I have not had a cold or flu in the 3 years that I have taken probiotics, and my eczema and allergies are much reduced. But...probiotics are only now being studied on a very perfunctory level, and usually in countries like Sweden and Japan rather than in the USA. It's like the health consumer must swim upstream to find non-medical ways to treat her health symptoms.
For my part, I will continue to take a multivitamin plus my alpha-lipoic acid and CoQ10 supplements. I believe, as an informed consumer, that the benefits outweigh the risks with regard to insulin resistance. I hope that all of your readers make the same INFORMED decision.
Lastly, I want to thank you for your articles on diabetes and, in particular, the glycemic index. Keep up the great work! Kathy
Hi, new poster here and am enjoying the commentary going on concerning antioxidants. I work on a medical campus and clinical studies on antioxidants is an interest of mine. Researchers and coaches of highly-trained athletes typically support antioxidant supplementation for exercise (Vit-E perhaps more than others), but speculation still exists on whether these do more harm than good. One big problem in using untrained subjects in studies is that they have not physiologically adapted to repeated bouts of high-intensity training, and therefore they are subject to much higher free-radical damage than trained athletes. In other words, there is a training effect where the body eventually adapts and can handle intense demands more efficiently.
As far as the wisdom of supplementing with antioxidants in general, it seems recent studies are pointing in the direction stated by David originally; the blunting on HDL with a niacin-statin combination -by antioxidants- was a surprising one, but not if the general idea is kept in mind that high doses of these tend to stop the body from adapting properly to various influences. Ditto with exercise. In fact, one theory of why type-I diabetes is so common these days in children is the observation that children grow up "too sanitized" in developed countries - their bodies aren't getting enough environmental "dirt" for their bodies to counteract. Interesting theory...which would parallel the idea here that we don't want the body to be deprived of creating its own defenses to external stressors.
Just a thought.
Regards, Jim
Dear David,
i am SDM from Sri lanka the country in wold news these days. I am a diabetic for last 12 years & took various medications ( Western & local) hoping it would cure but now taking 2.5Mg Dionil daily and do excersie 15-20 minutes jogging early morning & drinking 1.5 Lts of Water before Food. I maintain below 110 FBS but my 1AIC rate is 7.1. My doctor advise me to take Glycomet SR 500 Mg to get the FBS below 100 but after taking this drugI had civiar Gastric pains so I revert back to Dionil. I do take Vit B ( Beminal) occasionally. I eat Guava fruit ( Not seerds) almost daily. Howver my Doctor never priscibe any Vitamin to me. Pls review & comment since I value your comments very much .
Rgds
SDM
Dear SDM,
You probably don't need to take many vitamins, particularly if your doctor doesn't think so. But you almost certainly do need to take vitamin D supplements, as I just wrote here.
Beyond that, diet including weight loss for most people, exercise, and drugs are the only ways that we have to control our diabetes. We don't have any way to cure it, but our control can be just as good.
Since you regularly exercise and because your doctor is a much better judge of the medication that you need than I am, my main suggestion is to improve your diet. Specifically, it is the starches and sugars in your diet -- the carbohydrates that you eat that are your problem. Fat doesn't raise blood glucose at all, and protein and fiber has very little effect.
Personally, I eat almost no starches and sugars and am therefore able to control my blood glucose and reduce my weight. So I know that this diet, a very low-carbohydrate diet, is one that really works.
Best regards,
David
Dear David,
Thank you for the reply. In Sri Lanka we eat rice or other food prepared from rice flour. I visited my Doctor just 02 months ago & till then for 11/12 years of being Diabetic I had many medicine from local doctors ( Herble). When I was in Tailand I had a opportunity to see the " Dragon Fruit" cultivations & many heath drinks made by them from it as a better diabetic control fruit. Can you enlight all your friend in this forum the truth in " Dragon Fruit" and also cinaman as well.
Rgds
SDM
Dear SDM,
I don't know anything about Dragon Fruit, although I extolled cinnamon a few years ago. Now, however, I am beginning to have my doubts about how well it can help us control our blood glucose levels. In any case, cinnamon, like and supplement or herbal, is not standardized. That means we don't have a good measure to use to know how much to take.
But I do know about rice. Almost all varieties of rice are high glycemic, meaning that they raise our blood glucose levels fast and high. All varities of rice are high in those starchy carbohydrates that work against blood glucose control. Probably the best thing that you could do for your diabetes control right now would be to cut way back on the amount of rice that you eat.
Best regards,
David
The study did not find that intensive supplements negated the effects of exercize.
What it found is that young college men who had "regular exercize" taking relatively small amounts of antioxident supplements for 4 weeks had no improvement in insulin sensitivity and no improvement in natural defense mechanism against oxidative damage
This "study" was so limited in its size, duration or rigor its "findings" aren't statistically significant. Presenting it as a study deserving a consideration in lifestyle change is junk science.
A real study would have had a minimum of 8 groups, with exercize as a controlled (formally measured) variable, a statistically significant group sizes covering a range of ages and both genders, and a duration of years, not weeks. A minimum, of 8 groups would be reguired.
Group 1 (control) = no supplements, no exercize
Group 2 = moderate exercize, no supplements
Group 3 = intensive exercize, no supplements
Group 4 = moderate supplements, no exercize
Group 5 = intensive supplements, no exercize
Group 6 = moderate exercize, moderate supplements
Group 7 = intensive exercize, moderate supplements
Group 8 = intensive exercize, intensive supplements
Such a study would have detected any synergistic effects from supplements and exercize.
As a former statistician and medical researcher I have to agree that any propective study of four groups of ten each for four weeks just can't be taken very seriously. It is way too small and way too short.
And the effect of "antioxidants" and "free radical scavengers" simply cannot be compared to the effects of exercise. They are not in the same league. Exercise has a huge undisputed positive effect on anyone's body. "Oxidation" and "free radical chemistry" is the very basis of life itself, so any "antioxidants" or "free radical scavengers" which actually significantly decreased oxidation or free radical chemistry in the body would kill you!
Many pieces of research have shown no effect, positive or negative, from taking moderate doses of vitamins and negative effects from taking megadoses of any vitamin (1000 mgs of C and 400 mg of E are megadoses!). So, even though the study statistics are questionable, the findings are not surprising.
David B
The doses of vitamins C and E in this study may be considered to be megadoses by people who go by the FDA's RDAs, but they are neither the largest doses available over the counter, nor the largest daily doses taken routinely by many people. If these vitamins are absent or inadequate in the diet, many biologic processes are negatively effected.
The label "antioxidant" isn't true from a general chemical standpoint, these vitamins act more as inhibitors or binding agents in certain reactions that are described as oxidation because radicals are involved, binding occurs and heat is released. The vitamins' action is sloppily described as anti-oxidant by marketers. In other reactions these same vitamins act as catalysts.
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I have had Type 2 diabetes since August 2001. During that time as well as the present I have many friends and family insist that I take numerous vitamin supplements along with my food intake. I tried that (also took large doses of Vitamins C & E). I could not tell much difference in my blood sugar readings. I eat the proper meals and exercise daily. My exercise consists of non-weights bearing types (walking, riding a stationary bicycle) because of peripheral neuropathy in both feet and lower legs. I found that by increasing my exercise from 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours of daily walking and cycling my blood sugars became tighter controlled. I stopped taking all the vitamins except for Vitamin D (because I don't like dairy products, nor the sun). I have so much more energy than I did when taking all those vitamins. So, I agree with you about the supplements. I've saved enough money from not buying all these vitamins to take as spending money on vacation this summer. Thank you for your article. I always take note of what you write and there are many times that your article has given me new information that I really needed concerning diabetes.
Dear Barbara,
Thank you for writing!
I laughed out loud about how you can afford a vacation this summer from the money you've saving by not buying those supplements! I have been thinking along the same lines.
Best regards,
David